pH. Jin_D3vil Mar 30, 2013 @ 7:30am
Become a better customer
I'm frankly sick of reading threads either based on "Early Access" or "Alpha" and "Beta" offers. I get that a fair amount of people either feel cheated, pressured or even tricked into buying some thing they don't want and end up regretting. You need to grow up and accept responsibility for your own purchases. If you do buy any thing without research then you and solely you are responsible for the state you are in.

Gamers have worked hard to get developers and publishers to lax their restrictions on us getting early access to their games in an unfinished and often unflattering state. This is a privilege that comes with only one condition. You KNOWINGLY buy a product in an unfinished state and may have a sub par experiance and may not get to enjoy the experiance. It's a fairly simple deal, unless you are incredibly ignorant it's obvious that you should only do so if you are willing to deal with that.

The only exception you have is when they have either lied, misrepresented or provided a product that does not match what you have bought. If that's the case, then you have the right to complain. Otherwise grow the hell up.
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Riku Saito Mar 30, 2013 @ 7:42am 
^ 100% Agree to everything said too many people complain over their own idiotic mistakes if you buy it and dont like it thats your fault if you buy it and it doesnt match what you've brought thats their fault.

Research what your gonna buy via company reviews, customer reviews and youtube then make your choice whether or not your gonna buy it.

if you dont research the games you're looking at then buy and hate it thats your fault dont cry on the forums cos your a fricken r-e-t-a-r-d.
Last edited by Riku Saito; Mar 30, 2013 @ 7:43am
Riku Saito Mar 30, 2013 @ 7:45am 
Originally posted by TheBDK:
In the old days, beta meant testing an almost finished product. These days beta means earlier access. No early access, earlier. And surprisingly, people are dumb enough to pay for that. Blame them, not the company that tries to make a profit.

um dont know what beta's you've been in but Beta is still an Unfinished Product, Beta Testers test the game and report issues, glitches and any bugs found in the game so they can be looked at and fixed before the game is released in no way is Beta a Finished product of the game.
Tito Shivan Mar 30, 2013 @ 8:54am 
Originally posted by Riku Saito:
um dont know what beta's you've been in but Beta is still an Unfinished Product, Beta Testers test the game and report issues, glitches and any bugs found in the game so they can be looked at and fixed before the game is released in no way is Beta a Finished product of the game.
That's indeed the definition of Beta. However, as TheBDK says, for players the definition has 'shifted' from that into 'earlier access'
Do you really think all the people who jumped into testing CS:GO did it to test it, look for errors, and provide feedback to fix the bugs? They weren't. They were there to play before anyone, to be 'first!" in the game. You could read them on the beta bugs threads, not reporting bugs, but complaining about how buggy the last update was.
They were not 'testing' the game, they were 'playing' it.

It was a matter of time before publishers tried to get a slice of that cake. And it was a matter of time before some publisher decided to abuse it (TheWarZ)

And that's why they complain even when 'This is not a finished product' is plastered all across the section. Because they simply don't understand it, they've been too used to consider Beta access a 'Finished-Product earlier access' so the fact that an actual Alpha game is in an Alpha state shocks them. They just want to play it before everyone else, not test it, find bugs, bear with crashes...
Riku Saito Mar 30, 2013 @ 10:12am 
Originally posted by Tito Shivan:
Originally posted by Riku Saito:
um dont know what beta's you've been in but Beta is still an Unfinished Product, Beta Testers test the game and report issues, glitches and any bugs found in the game so they can be looked at and fixed before the game is released in no way is Beta a Finished product of the game.
That's indeed the definition of Beta. However, as TheBDK says, for players the definition has 'shifted' from that into 'earlier access'
Do you really think all the people who jumped into testing CS:GO did it to test it, look for errors, and provide feedback to fix the bugs? They weren't. They were there to play before anyone, to be 'first!" in the game. You could read them on the beta bugs threads, not reporting bugs, but complaining about how buggy the last update was.
They were not 'testing' the game, they were 'playing' it.

It was a matter of time before publishers tried to get a slice of that cake. And it was a matter of time before some publisher decided to abuse it (TheWarZ)

And that's why they complain even when 'This is not a finished product' is plastered all across the section. Because they simply don't understand it, they've been too used to consider Beta access a 'Finished-Product earlier access' so the fact that an actual Alpha game is in an Alpha state shocks them. They just want to play it before everyone else, not test it, find bugs, bear with crashes...

its people who treat beta's as early access to the game is why we get games full of bugs in the first place they dont deserve to be in a beta if they dont report any errors they find.

many companies state in the ToS "This is not a finished project and is subject to change" yes your seeing the game before others but it doesnt mean thats what the game will be like on release there will be lots of changes before a release from beta and saying they arent testing the game they are playing it is redundant you have to play the game to test it, people who just want in Beta's just to have Early Access to the game are the scum of the gaming community.

Beta's and Alpha's are there for us to help said games companies to make their games better not for people to go "im just here cos i wanted early access to the game" those people defeat the purpose of us being in them, the people that want to be in them to help make the game better for the release.

god me + a load of friends was in the Alpha and are currently in the Beta for FFXIV we dont just play the game we look for all posible exploits while we play any bugs any glitches and we report them to the Devs since thats what a Beta Tester should do.
Riku Saito Mar 30, 2013 @ 10:25am 
Originally posted by TheBDK:
^ How was life under that rock of yours? I would really like to know, personally.

nice and warm actually, atleast i know what a Beta is ment for unlike you, your probably one of those people that just want to use Beta's as Early Access and fall under the Scum Catergory good day to you.
Riku Saito Mar 30, 2013 @ 10:36am 
LOL as far as i can tell your all talk and dont even understand the concept of a TEST, go read a book or something its all your good for
Dreakon Mar 30, 2013 @ 10:51am 
Originally posted by TheBDK:
In the old days, beta meant testing an almost finished product. These days beta means earlier access. Not early access (you pay a different amount of cash for that which is lol), I mean earlier. And surprisingly, people are dumb enough to pay for that. Blame them, not the company that tries to make a profit.
This is pretty much right on the money.

Back in the day, betas were free and a means of testing a product before mass consumption. Companies began to realize, in public/open betas at least, that users were more interested in trying a game early then actually providing feedback and bug testing. People liked having a chance to try upcoming games early. Who wouldn't?

These are the same people who complained when their characters in MMO betas were wiped upon release, and the same people who didn't understand they were participating in a beta and the developers didn't get the critical feedback and bug testing they needed. They just used them to play the games, not test them. The "open beta" process becoming ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ized by it's own users should've been a red flag to find a better means of testing games.

Instead, since the users were not using betas for their intended purposes anyways, developers decided "alright... we'll still give you the early access you like so much, but we'll give it a different name [from beta to early access] and we might as well get some revenue/marketing out of it in the process."

Not sure who to blame really. It's a little sleazy of the developers to embrace the stupidity of their userbase and monetize/market their game off of a critical development phase... which probably is a small part in why games are so buggy out of the gate these days. But if gamers are stupid enough to pay for something, and not realize what they are paying for or their role in the process, then I can't say they don't deserve it.
Last edited by Dreakon; Mar 30, 2013 @ 10:51am
pH. Jin_D3vil Mar 30, 2013 @ 5:14pm 
Originally posted by TheBDK:
Originally posted by Riku Saito:

nice and warm actually, atleast i know what a Beta is ment for unlike you, your probably one of those people that just want to use Beta's as Early Access and fall under the Scum Catergory good day to you.
Unlike you, I grew up with games. You don't know squat as far as I can tell. It's quite amusing. actually.

Thats impressive, that you can say you grew up with games and still be completly oblivious and condescending in the exact same sentance. There are companies that use "Early Access" and glorified betas as a means to drive early sales and mass appeal via user feedback. Thats some thing people need to be aware of and be sure that they are not just being fooled into paying for a game already in release state. It has happened, but the vast majority of games releasing in Alpha/Beta states are quite literally the results of gamers saying to devs and publishers that we can differentiate between release and test phases and that while we may not enjoy the entire process. We do want the option to buy the game and contribute to the process in a testing capacity.

Games like Natural Selection 2, Minecraft, WarZ, Miner Wars and currently ArmA 3 offer such options to gamers. That or they have at different stages in development offered different options. Minecraft for one was far cheaper the earlier you bought it. These are not all scams, they are hard fought concessions that the community has long since asked for. People out there do want to contribute, and often in cash, testing and feedback to ideas and dev input. The vast majority of actual gamers are informed and read up on any product they are intrested in.

If a game is in Alpha or Beta expect issues. Even the best Developers have problems they can't forsee. But never mind that, if an offer sounds too good to be true, it often is. Only buy a product if you know it is worth the price. Only a fool buys some thing without knowing what they bought.
Rzep Mar 31, 2013 @ 1:53am 
I remember when I raised this subject on some forum, be a responsible customer, it's your money do some research instead of throwing it about and later regretting. Oh how I was flamed and attacked.
Riku Saito Mar 31, 2013 @ 2:52am 
Originally posted by Rzep:
I remember when I raised this subject on some forum, be a responsible customer, it's your money do some research instead of throwing it about and later regretting. Oh how I was flamed and attacked.

probably by the people that dont research their games and are all butthurt over buying a game they later regeted
pH. Jin_D3vil Mar 31, 2013 @ 4:00am 
Originally posted by Rzep:
I remember when I raised this subject on some forum, be a responsible customer, it's your money do some research instead of throwing it about and later regretting. Oh how I was flamed and attacked.

Sadly people are far quicker to throw blame about than accept responsibility as a consumer. In part I think it has to do with the misconception of the laws that are there to protect consumers. Instead if people took an hour and looked at a game and really asked themselves if it was what they wanted and at the price they are asking for. That is incredibly simple online as there are far more resources out there to allow people to do this.

The knee-jerk reaction to this may well be that we no longer get the oportunity to test games or have the option to support games at an earlier state of development. Which would be one of the sadest things to happen to gaming and development. Look at Kickstarter and the number of really great games that have been crowd funded. It would be detrimental to the growth of this medium because people are blatantly unable to follow a simple process as researching a game before buying, IF it's a game you may regret buying.
T-elos Apr 2, 2013 @ 8:49pm 
I agree with you OP but I think it's silly that devs and publishers are starting to agree to do this anyway. The first impression is always the most important and surely they would realize people are going to whine about early versions if they suck.

Archeblade and Planetside 2 are the two most recent examples I had. PS2 beta ran at 1fps for me once I left spawn. Empty, nothing there. No other game gave me problems. When it finally got released I could care less even though it apparently got more optimized. I decided to try it when I upgraded my compy... and I found I really enjoy the game. But I was really reluctant to install.

Archeblade too.. I just played it and I find it clunky as all hell... Hope it's better later on.
pH. Jin_D3vil Apr 3, 2013 @ 5:50am 
Sorry your experiance wasn't good. But if you play a game in an unfinished state and expect it to run flawlessly then you are only deluding yourself. It is quite certain that first impressions are by far and large the most important thing for games as they can make or break a game for people. In a lot of cases games sell due to Alpha/Beta feedback as well. Look at Minecraft that was sold in very early stages of development. There were issues but the community of players could see the potential and the fun of the game and persisited with it. Now look at the game as it is now. It's not even the same game in terms of content and stability. If you played any game in Alpha and Beta and expected it to run without issue, you would never play any game. Even the ones you really enjoyed. If you can not take things at face value when they are clearly telling you there will be problems, then refrain from playing any thing in Alpha or Beta status.

For an example of this, I played Matrix Online in Alpha stage. It was at 2/3am my time for two days a week. The test server was in New York and the game was not optimised at all. I spent 90% of my testing dealing with crashes, glitches and lag you would not believe. At some points the lag turned 10 minute missions into a minimum of an hour due to rubber banding sending me back a huge distance every time. I still seen the games potential and had a lot of fun. While the game wasn't everyones cup of tea and I didn't agree with every decision they made I still bought it and played it because there was a lot there I did like. If I had played that like you seem to I'd have quit the first day and never have played it again. I'd have never had played with some of the Admins and community members. I'd have not have had as much fun as I had, even with the issues if I'd just quit because of common issues in that development stage.

As I said before, PC gamers are generally the most informed and opinionated of all gamers. People who enjoyed gaming and even wanted to help with the development have worked hard to allow us access to games in states the publishers never used to let the public see. There was no Alpha and Beta access because the publishers and developers feared the exact same thing you mentioned. But we have gotten to the stage where people actively involve themselves in IP they really care for and want to support. I would not like this access dropped because there are people out there who expect the impossible and have neither the common sense or ability to understand the implications of Alpha and Beta. No-one is ever forced to play a game in an unfinnished state. If you can't enjoy games in that state then don't play them. If it's obvious that it will ruin your experiance, why would you even bother playing them if that's the case.
«Gғм» Kid Of The Century Apr 3, 2013 @ 7:21am 
Originally posted by VGN Jin_D3vil pH.Chill:
The only exception you have is when they have either lied, misrepresented or provided a product that does not match what you have bought. If that's the case, then you have the right to complain. Otherwise grow the hell up.

This is something that baffles me. People complain about Early Access while they should be glad to have a clear distinction between an alpha stage game and a finished one. This should've been in place *a long* time ago.

Let any commecial dept. manage the Steam store page without any supervision was one of the biggest mistake Valve made recently (yes, I'm talking about The WarZ). A mistake they paid fairly well, considering they issued full refunds at the very instant one asked for, but still a mistake.
No One Apr 3, 2013 @ 6:55pm 
Originally posted by TheBDK:
In the old days, beta meant testing an almost finished product.* These days beta means playing a half broken incomplete alpha*

*fixed
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Date Posted: Mar 30, 2013 @ 7:30am
Posts: 62