Yealot of Yahoshua Nov 3, 2013 @ 1:32pm
Civ 5 refers to the attack on Pearl Harbor as a "brilliant surprise attack"?
The Civ 5 help page for Carriers (along with the Civ 5 wiki page for Carriers) states the following:

"The first flight of an aircraft from an American vessels came in 1910. While some traditionalists fought the development of the carrier, claiming that the battleship was and would always remain the backbone of a modern navy, carriers were in production in navies across the world by the 1920s. In December of 1941 the Japanese navy proved the power of aircraft carriers beyond the shadow of a doubt by destroying much of the American Pacific fleet (including most of its vaunted battleships) in a brilliant surprise attack at Pearl Harbor. By an extraordinary stroke of fortune the American carriers were not at port when the attack occurred, and these were able to slow the Japanese advance until the massive US carrier production effort began to bear fruit, eventually resulting in overwhelming American carrier (and air) superiority, and crushing defeat for Japan."

More like a cowardly surprise attack. There is no brilliance in attacking people who do not even know you are at war with them.

This almost makes me want to write to 2k and demand they change this sentence.
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Vagrant Nov 3, 2013 @ 2:07pm 
It's viewed as a "brilliant surprise attack" mainly because of the strategic value PH had.

Then what? Hiroshima? Nagasaki? Cowardly surprise attack?
Yealot of Yahoshua Nov 3, 2013 @ 2:12pm 
Actually, those were in response to the attack on Pearl Harbor. I do not totally agree with using atomic weapons like that, but I understand the reason they did use them and they were used while at war. If America had dropped those bombs when not at war with Japan, that would have been a totally different story (and even much worse than the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor).

Regardless, it is all tragic in the end.
Vagrant Nov 3, 2013 @ 2:22pm 
Indeed it is.

The A-bomb had such a mass effect on the geo-political map that it turned most leaders in the world into diplomats.

But you don't see this in Civ 5. ^_^ Ghandi doesn't give a ♥♥♥♥.
MaxDoomSWE Nov 3, 2013 @ 2:48pm 
It was a brilliant surprise attack. Nuff said. But the movie was on the other hand not that brilliant:)
Yealot of Yahoshua Nov 3, 2013 @ 3:00pm 
Originally posted by MaxDoomSWE:
It was a brilliant surprise attack. Nuff said. But the movie was on the other hand not that brilliant:)

What do you think was brilliant about it?
CruxTerminatus Nov 3, 2013 @ 3:15pm 
I am fairly certain the developers are not making any political stances by their wording. A brilliant surprise doesn't always infer a "good surprise"... it may be taken at its literal meaning of a brilliant surprise, because it was completely unexpected.
Yealot of Yahoshua Nov 3, 2013 @ 3:25pm 
Originally posted by CruxTerminatus:
I am fairly certain the developers are not making any political stances by their wording. A brilliant surprise doesn't always infer a "good surprise"... it may be taken at its literal meaning of a brilliant surprise, because it was completely unexpected.

I understand your points, and can agree on most. However, I believe the fact that it was unexpected is what makes it a surprise attack. What I am asking is what makes it a "brilliant" surprise attack. The word "brilliant" expresses that it was of exceptional intelligence, skill, or talent, etc. I do not believe it took a whole lof of any of those things to think, "hey, we aren't at war with America... I know! Let's bomb their horbor while they aren't looking!". Seems more like an "average surprise attack" at best, or, like I originally said, a "cowardly surprise attack", seeing as how the generally accepted and more honorable idea of warfare involves only launching surprise attacks on people who you are currently at war with (e.g. D-Day is a good example of this, I would say).
dank Nov 3, 2013 @ 3:25pm 
It was a Brilliant Suprise attack,To the Japs.
Cybot Nov 3, 2013 @ 3:37pm 
it was a brilliant suprise, maybe not for the US though. But they took the Americans by suprise, in a briliant move, sorry that you can't see that. Also, if anything was cowardly done it would be the atomic bombs the US dropped on innocent japanese.
Last edited by Cybot; Nov 3, 2013 @ 3:37pm
CruxTerminatus Nov 3, 2013 @ 3:40pm 
Originally posted by Sir Jealot of Yehoshua:
I understand your points, and can agree on most. However, I believe the fact that it was unexpected is what makes it a surprise attack. What I am asking is what makes it a "brilliant" surprise attack. The word "brilliant" expresses that it was of exceptional intelligence, skill, or talent, etc. I do not believe it took a whole lof of any of those things to think, "hey, we aren't at war with America... I know! Let's bomb their horbor while they aren't looking!". Seems more like an "average surprise attack" at best, or, like I originally said, a "cowardly surprise attack", seeing as how the generally accepted and more honorable idea of warfare involves only launching surprise attacks on people who you are currently at war with (e.g. D-Day is a good example of this, I would say).

Likewise, I can agree on some of what you say as well. It also comes down to individual interpretations of the wording too. Using the word honour in warfare is a very dangerous ground, and probably not in the scope for discussion on a gaming forum... especially for Civilization :)

"Brilliant" can be used to describe a tactical strategy, indicating what is a good move - taken from the point of view of the aggressor - I am sure the Japanese thought their move was brilliant when they executed the plan. It certainly doesn't mean it's a good (in the literal sense of the word) thing that happened.

Again, I don't think the developers meant any offence... I know some games do attempt to make political statements, but Civilization was never a platform for this. If anything, it is complete neutrality, injecting a little humour into characters based on real life.
Bulldogs Nov 3, 2013 @ 3:57pm 
Originally posted by Sir Jealot of Yehoshua:
The Civ 5 help page for Carriers (along with the Civ 5 wiki page for Carriers) states the following:

"The first flight of an aircraft from an American vessels came in 1910. While some traditionalists fought the development of the carrier, claiming that the battleship was and would always remain the backbone of a modern navy, carriers were in production in navies across the world by the 1920s. In December of 1941 the Japanese navy proved the power of aircraft carriers beyond the shadow of a doubt by destroying much of the American Pacific fleet (including most of its vaunted battleships) in a brilliant surprise attack at Pearl Harbor. By an extraordinary stroke of fortune the American carriers were not at port when the attack occurred, and these were able to slow the Japanese advance until the massive US carrier production effort began to bear fruit, eventually resulting in overwhelming American carrier (and air) superiority, and crushing defeat for Japan."

More like a cowardly surprise attack. There is no brilliance in attacking people who do not even know you are at war with them.

This almost makes me want to write to 2k and demand they change this sentence.

You realise that what they say is from an analystic point of view correct, from a moral point of view (depending on what side of the fence you are on) perhaps not.

I think your patriotism is clouding your judgement here.
Crix Nov 3, 2013 @ 5:05pm 
It was brilliant surprise attack in a sense that it was not expected and crippled their enemy's forces. The devs talk about the strategic element of the attack, not the politics behind it.

By your logic every surprise attack is cowardly, because it always involves victims, who are not aware of it.

What is an honorable surpise attack? One, where so set up signs with "Careful, ambush ahead"?
Steve Saint James Nov 3, 2013 @ 5:38pm 
I kinda agree with the OP on this. It was a surprise attack, but calling it "brilliant" is a bit much as a 5 year old could've come with this plan. That and I believe(correct me If I'm wrong) the main target of the Japanese were the US carriers which weren't even at Pearl Harbor. In that case, the attack failed as the backbone of the US navy remained intact.
Darth Fish Nov 3, 2013 @ 5:56pm 
It does seem a strange descriptive choice and I can understand how it could be offensive.

A little out of character given the historical nature of WWII avoidance and neutrality within this game series (i.e Germany and the lack of H).

However, it did make me think of this..... so BRILLIANT !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B12WBTFLK0Q

sheherezadeblanc Nov 3, 2013 @ 7:33pm 
picture admiral Akbar... to the Japanese planning to bomb Pearl Harbor... "It's a TRAP!"
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Date Posted: Nov 3, 2013 @ 1:32pm
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