Maloy20 8. heinä, 2013 17.35
Why the hate for Ulfric?
I mean Ulfric specifically and not the Stormcloaks.

I never understood why people have such an intense hate for him. You barely talk to him throughout the game really so not like you get to know him or anything.

When you're about to be executed he appears to be facing it with courage alongside the men who fought with him. Doesn't appear to be soiling his trousers or anything, and is still very calm and collected when Alduin attacks.

The Empire spreads rumours around about him a ton, the game is filled with rumours about Ulfric(kind of dissapointing with him being so weak) but rumours are exactly that. They aren't trustworthy! For all we know Ulfric never really even shouted the high king but used a spell!

The only thing we know for sure about him character wise is that he does not like the Dark Elves in the Gray Quarter, but does not appear to dislike the race overall since the player can be a dark elf.

I've heard people say he is simply after power. Maybe maybe not. The Imperials say he is and the stormcloaks say he is not. When you speak to him he tries to redirect your focus away from HIM and onto the stolen religious rights and "freedoms" of Skyrim's people. Which is not only a smart political move but implies to me he does not see it all about him.

Also his pal Galmar who he fought the war with. Galmar seems to believe Ulfric's intentions are true after spending so many years fighting with him that is something to take regard of, especially since Galmar is not the subtle type.

Not implying he is a good guy but saying he is a bad guy seems to be going a bit too far. I could say Tulius is a bad guy because in his final speech he trivializes the war itself and those who died in it, but if I claimed he was a bad guy from it it might be taking it a bit too far.

I'm just trying to understand the reasoning for thinking he is a villain.

EDIT: Oh another thing I COULD say about Tullius. Ulfric offers the general a chance to surrender and live if you side with him. The general does not do the same for Ulfric. Still not saying Tulius is necesarily a bad guy although to me he seems less honorable. Just a point
Viimeisin muokkaaja on Maloy20; 8. heinä, 2013 17.40
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The Baron 8. heinä, 2013 18.01 
I think most people just take umbrage with the rascist side of Stormcloak dogma.

I don't think anyone doubts Ulfric's courage or leadership but...Skyrim ISN'T just for the Nords.
Maloy20 8. heinä, 2013 18.05 
The Baron lähetti viestin:
I think most people just take umbrage with the rascist side of Stormcloak dogma.

I don't think anyone doubts Ulfric's courage or leadership but...Skyrim ISN'T just for the Nords.
That's pretty reasonable. Don't see it as a reason to hate him because I know plenty of people with different views then me that sometimes offend me.

and unfortunately the thing about any military force is that their are going to be extremists within it. I'm sure there are imperial legionnares that want all Stormcloaks hung or flogged or handed over to the Thalmor!
Arcamean 8. heinä, 2013 18.09 
Well it depends are you going by meta knowledge? Or First encounters? If RPing, does your character have prior knowledge into Thalmor operations? Honestly I think a lot of people side against him as the baron said the Rasist dogma. The Stormcloaks are always saying "If you know any true sons or daughters of skyrim...". Well first of all you're not from Skyrim else why would you be enroute to the headsman block? The flip side to that is while the female imperial captain did order your execution. The GENERAL of the imperial army who was standing right there could of stopped it. Why would he have someone executed for little more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time?

When I side with the stormcloaks I rarely do so because my character believes his mantra. I do so because my character either hates the empire in general or simply wants a land where elves can't tell him who he can worship.
The Baron 8. heinä, 2013 18.10 
Oh I'm certain they do! My tendency is to side wit the Stormcloaks, nothing like a good liberationist movement, but I'm honestly not fond of either faction.

Having a rascist view point is very telling of the narrowmindedness of Ulfric's personal nature , and might well make for a more dictarorial rule with Khajit and Elves as second class citizens, at best.

And as for his friends believeing his goals are just...well, I'm sure there were plenty of guys in the SS who felt the same way about their leader's views. ;)
Maloy20 8. heinä, 2013 18.17 
Very true very true. If I have to pick a side its normally stormcloak and that is because I personally like Hadvar(or was it Ralaf) Galmar and Ulfric and I feel like they are representations of the majority of the stormcloak faction.

To me the leader of the rebellion is very likable but the rebels are not

The leader of the Imperials is very dislikable(besides his voice actor who is cool) and the imperial soldiers are likable.

I think they tried to do that with both sides, but people paid more attention to the rumours and the racist ideology of the rebels

On my paladin guy I never pick a side and he is probably the character I pour the most of my heart and soul into.
fran25 8. heinä, 2013 18.24 
Skyrim Is For the NORDS!!!!
The Baron 8. heinä, 2013 18.26 
My natural inclination is to resist anything called an empire.

There's little chance that my Dark Elf (ther character I've poured my heart and soul into) would even take sides in the war. Both sides have little to recommend them to her, but a concern that all of Skyrim would become like the Grey Quarter for her people pushed her towrd the Imperial camp.
Maloy20 8. heinä, 2013 18.31 
The Baron lähetti viestin:
My natural inclination is to resist anything called an empire.

There's little chance that my Dark Elf (ther character I've poured my heart and soul into) would even take sides in the war. Both sides have little to recommend them to her, but a concern that all of Skyrim would become like the Grey Quarter for her people pushed her towrd the Imperial camp.
That makes a good bit of sense. Especially since the Thalmor don't approve of the Dark Elves and their religious practices. From what I know they apparently would exterminate the Dark Elves were it not for the Empire being in the way
The Baron 8. heinä, 2013 18.35 
And of course she would hate the Thalmor, and the Nords would break up the Empire allowing the Thalmor to more easily take it all over a bit at a time.

Ah politics, ain't it grand? :P
stabbykitteh 8. heinä, 2013 18.41 
I don't hate Ulfric, I just think he's arrogant and caught up in his own hype.

Not crazy about the isolationist / xenophobic aspect either, but I also believe that cutting Skyrim off from the Empire (notably flawed as it is) isn't actually in the Nord's best interest.

If one reads certain journals during the main quest, the Thalmor are hoping Ulfric wins. My thought on that has been that it's because the next thing that happens after Skyrim achieves independance is a full-on Thalmor invasion...

Which may be a bad guess, but... weakened by the civil war, Skyrim might just lose that fight. That would not be a good thing for the Nords or the rest of Tamriel.
Maloy20 8. heinä, 2013 18.43 
The dossier thing is not true. They are glad the civil war started, but want it to continue as long as possible. They see Ulfric as almost as large a threat as the empire.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak


The Baron lähetti viestin:
And of course she would hate the Thalmor, and the Nords would break up the Empire allowing the Thalmor to more easily take it all over a bit at a time.

Ah politics, ain't it grand? :P
Trust me I have an easier time with these politics then the real stuff lol it is not a realm for the sane!
Viimeisin muokkaaja on Maloy20; 8. heinä, 2013 18.50
White Knight 8. heinä, 2013 18.52 
I dislike Ulfric because he is the leader. I know that makes him responsible for the Stormcloaks, what they do and who they hate. The "few bad apples" argument makes me throw up a little in my mouth.

This next part is not only a spoiler, it could also be totally wrong - so be warned.

Documents recovered from the Thalmor Embassy...last warning...said something that made it sound like Ulfric was working for the Thalmor as an agent at one point. I've never heard anyone talk about this so I doubt my own memories. Or am I the one who needs to be shielded from spoilers since I've made a point of never finishing the main quest line?

That has been the deciding factor for me.

The OP asked about Ulfric so I won't bother explaining why the Empire sucks too...lol

(The three previous posts didn't exist when I started writing this post...lol)
Viimeisin muokkaaja on White Knight; 8. heinä, 2013 18.56
The Baron 8. heinä, 2013 18.54 
Maloy20 lähetti viestin:
Trust me I have an easier time with these politics then the real stuff lol it is not a realm for the sane!

Oh for sure! I'd much rather debate fictional politics that stir up the real thing!

I don't hate Ulfric either, I declined to finish him when the time came. Just not sure I'd trust him with my rights. ;)
Maloy20 8. heinä, 2013 18.57 
tiredofpain lähetti viestin:
I dislike Ulfric because he is the leader. I know that makes him responsible for the Stormcloaks, what they do and who they hate. The "few bad apples" argument makes me throw up a little in my mouth.

This next part is not only a spoiler, it could also be totally wrong - so be warned.

Documents recovered from the Thalmor Embassy...last warning...said something that made it sound like Ulfric was working for the Thalmor as an agent at one point. I've never heard anyone talk about this so I doubt my own memories. Or am I the one who needs to be shielded from spoilers since I've made a point of never finishing the main quest line?

That has been the deciding factor for me.

The OP asked about Ulfric so I won't bother explaining why the Empire sucks too...lol
Theirs a link to it right above your post, and yes it implies that either he was cooperating at one point or was being manipulated by them but is now hostile to them.

We can agree to disagree on the bad apples thing simply because this wasn't intended as an argument thread just trying to get a grip on understanding it.

Also a new thing came up for me. The High Elf in Windhelm she owns a stall in the normal Market and has her own residence yet she is also an elf a HIGH elf at that who is considered one of the biggest enemies of the Nords. She claims she got it through hard work, as well as that one Hiaalu Dark Elf who owns a farm outside the city. Would that imply that part of the Dark Elves own situation is brought upon themselves?

I just realized it so was wanting some inputs
pandoradog22 8. heinä, 2013 19.07 
Personally, I don't really care for either side. Each side has some good and bad qualities. For the Sormcloaks: I personally don't like Ulfric (as I think him to be little more than a power hungry king, using the current state of the world to play on peoples emotions and prejudices to furhter his own goals). A large proportion of the Stormcloaks are rather racist, but not all of them. Some, like Ralof, really believe in what they are doing. Those people aren't fighting to exspunge Skyrim of all non-Nords, they are fighting for their freedom. And I can get behind that.

As for the Empire: Tulius isn't much better than Ulfric. He doesn't give a crap about Skyrim, and hes only there because he was ordered there. Hes a soldier, just following orders, but he cares about his men, and I can respect him for that (for anyone wondering, that is also one of Ulfric's only redeeming qualities). Rikka, on the other hand, cares about her homeland, and believes she is doing what is right for Skyrim. Most legionnaires are just soldiers following orders.

Generally, my characters side with the Empire, but not because they necessarilly love the Empire. More because my characters tend to have prior knowledge of the goings-on out in the world, and events in the game further develop what ties all my characters together: an intense hatred of the Thalmor. While at first it would seem that they should join the Stormcloaks, they choose otherwise. For this simple reason: the Thalmor want Ulfric to win, though they don't want this any time soon. They want the war to last as long as possible, so that both the Empire and the Stormcloaks tire themselves out, and waste all of their resources.

The Thalmor want Tamriel to be in the weakest state possible so that their next invasion will meet with little resistance. If the war drags on for too long, then the Thalmor will be unopposed when next they invade. But if Ulfric wins the war, the Empire will loose their best soldiers, so Tamriel will still fall. The only way for the Empire, for mankind, for every non-Altmer race to survive is to unite. The war must end, Skyrim must be brought back into the Empire, and the different resistance groups and insurgencies against the Thalmor must be brought together, only when every race- Nord, Imperial, Breton, Redguard, Dunmer, Khajit, Argonian, Orsimer, and Bosmer- unite against the Thamor can they hope to survive.

Because, if the Thalmor win, then mankind will be returned to slavery under the elves. The beast races will be lucky if they're treated as pets. The orcs would probably be wiped out, because they would put up the most resistance. And the other elves? They wouldn't be much better off. The Thalmor believe that the Altmer are the supreme race, that all others are inferior. The Dunmer and the Bosmer would be second-class citizens, at best. So, not for the Empire or for Skyrim, but for the freedom of all! For the future of all Tamriel, we must unite!

ps if you want a look into what life would be like in Tamriel under Thalmor rule, imagine Nazi Germany with swords and magic.
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