Skyrimnut Jul 9 @ 9:16am
[ANSWERED] Opposing magic schools... EDIT: Can Two Bears expand on something?
Someone posted a while back about magic schools that oppose each other. Is there a way to apply that to Skyrim? Just curious. Thank you.
Last edited by Skyrimnut; Jul 9 @ 7:23pm
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BelphegorATS Jul 9 @ 10:34am 
I believe there may be something of an opposition between the magic schools in Skyrim. Here's how I see it in my opinion:

Restoration vs. Destruction: Restoration is the school of white magic, healing spells that restore stats and cure afflictions while providing spells damaging to undead. Destruction is the school of black magic, spells that harm others via the elements in some way while using those elements for protection alongside spells that can weaken opponents' stats by damaging or draining them.

Alteration vs. Illusion: Alteration is a school of stable magic, spells that reinforce the caster in combat and outside of combat while providing paralysis spells to keep opponents from moving. Illusion is a school that mixes stability with chaos in that some spells aid allies and also calm enemies while the other half of the spectrum focuses on terrifying others and driving them crazy to the point where anyone affected by a frenzy spell assaults others. Invisibility and Muffle are two spells that aid stealth builds, but neither contributes to how the school functions as a whole concerning its somewhat opposition to Alteration.

Conjuration vs. Destruction: Conjuration is the school of evocation magic, spells that summon creatures from Oblivion and resurrect undead while including spells that create weapons out of magicka matter and Soul Trap to seal souls into soul gems. Destruction is (as I've said above) the school of black magic, spells that don't summon creatures but use magicka to produce elemental artes that are of the same element as atronachs summoned via Conjuration. You're summoning physical creatures and weapons from magicka matter with Conjuration and are summoning the elements in their raw form with Destruction.

Conjuration vs. Alteration vs. Destruction vs. Restoration vs. Illusion: Alteration provides stability in and out of combat. Conjuration stablizes magicka into solid forms of weapons. Destruction stabilizes magicka into raw elemental power. Restoration provides healing stability to keep the caster alive in combat. Illusion stabilizes the mental and moral state of others (and destabilizes them as well if needed). Although all five schools are entirely different, they each have one idea in common, and that is stability in some form or another.

Someone else might've posted this idea a while back in another thread, but I wanted to share my own take on it to show the differences between each set of schools and what they have in common with each other because I feel that's what needs to be accounted for when examing the schools for opposition with or against each other.
Skyrimnut Jul 9 @ 10:49am 
Oh wow, thanks for the post and for putting it into perspective. I know, however, that in some pure rpgs, if a mage selects one particular school, he/she cannot cast in a school that opposes it. Lol, there are rules to being a pure mage. I've tried googling, but since I'm not a player of hardcore rpgs, I am probably not searching correctly.

My reasons for asking are that once I'm finished with my current playthrough and after I've played another game or two, I'd like to redo Skyrim with the Requiem overhaul, which, from what I understand of it, encourages more pure classes in character building. I'd like to do a pure mage, which from what I've read is quite possible, though challenging.
White Rabbit "Alice" Jul 9 @ 11:15am 
Alteration and Illiusion: both alter either Physical or Psychological events around them: Alteration:Neutral. Illusion:Chaotic (50/50) Neutral Algnment.
Destruction:Controls Nature's forces of Ice,Wind, and Fire: Neutral.
Any mage without a Good or evil bias can use these.
Restoration:Healing,Shielding,Curing,Even Ressurection. Banishment: Good Alignment
Evil Alignments:
Conjuration is not evoking. Conjuring is a form of casting itself. Necromancy,Demonology,Bound Weapons which are only considered Evil as they Outerworldly,Banishment
Illusion:Frenzy and Fear could be considered evil as staples, turning foes on one another or making someone so scared, that they scatter and are an easy kill.
Enchantment. While not nesecearly evil the process of swallowing souls itself is a tad evil,and imbuing them into an item, hence creating a "slave" might be evil as well as unnatural

exceptions do exsist, just using stock spells.
Last edited by White Rabbit "Alice"; Jul 9 @ 11:22am
Skyrimnut Jul 9 @ 1:32pm 
Now, if you are going to play a mage based on traditional rpg principals, are you limited as to what you can cast? Like for example if you pick Destruction, I remember reading once that there was a school you could not cast in, but I don't remember which ones? I don't think pure rpg mages dabble in every school. Something about that idea seems to not gel.

Now, in a mod as difficult as Requiem, I imagine a compromise must be made as you will more than likely need enchanting to even survive as a pure mage. I have no problem going without armor and wielding only an unperked backup dagger as a weapon.
BelphegorATS Jul 9 @ 2:35pm 
Originally posted by Skyrimnut:
Oh wow, thanks for the post and for putting it into perspective. I know, however, that in some pure rpgs, if a mage selects one particular school, he/she cannot cast in a school that opposes it. Lol, there are rules to being a pure mage. I've tried googling, but since I'm not a player of hardcore rpgs, I am probably not searching correctly.

My reasons for asking are that once I'm finished with my current playthrough and after I've played another game or two, I'd like to redo Skyrim with the Requiem overhaul, which, from what I understand of it, encourages more pure classes in character building. I'd like to do a pure mage, which from what I've read is quite possible, though challenging.

You're welcome, and good luck with the playthrough on Requiem.


Originally posted by Dovah-Hime Sasami Misaki Jurai:
Alteration and Illiusion: both alter either Physical or Psychological events around them: Alteration:Neutral. Illusion:Chaotic (50/50) Neutral Algnment.
Destruction:Controls Nature's forces of Ice,Wind, and Fire: Neutral.
Any mage without a Good or evil bias can use these.
Restoration:Healing,Shielding,Curing,Even Ressurection. Banishment: Good Alignment
Evil Alignments:
Conjuration is not evoking. Conjuring is a form of casting itself. Necromancy,Demonology,Bound Weapons which are only considered Evil as they Outerworldly,Banishment
Illusion:Frenzy and Fear could be considered evil as staples, turning foes on one another or making someone so scared, that they scatter and are an easy kill.
Enchantment. While not nesecearly evil the process of swallowing souls itself is a tad evil,and imbuing them into an item, hence creating a "slave" might be evil as well as unnatural

exceptions do exsist, just using stock spells.

Those are good points, but one thing I want to point out is that conjuration and evocation are in fact synonyms so they both refer to the same concept. To evoke something is to conjure it from whatever source you're trying to contact for a summoned familiar.
BelphegorATS Jul 9 @ 2:51pm 
Originally posted by Skyrimnut:
Now, if you are going to play a mage based on traditional rpg principals, are you limited as to what you can cast? Like for example if you pick Destruction, I remember reading once that there was a school you could not cast in, but I don't remember which ones? I don't think pure rpg mages dabble in every school. Something about that idea seems to not gel.

Now, in a mod as difficult as Requiem, I imagine a compromise must be made as you will more than likely need enchanting to even survive as a pure mage. I have no problem going without armor and wielding only an unperked backup dagger as a weapon.

I've not really played too many RPGs, so I don't know if magic systems function like that. If that's the case for some RPGs or how you want to create a mage build, a fundamental concept to consider is how the selected school functions alone and with other schools. How it would impact your playstyle and other schools used in conjunction with it is vital to comprehending the build so you can acquire experience playing with it. It may be hard depending on which schools you choose to invest in, and it could be time consuming, but it will pay off in the long run should you choose to master the build. If it doesn't work, find a way to improve the build or change how you play with it. The worst case is you might need to start over with a new build based on different schools and/or concepts, but it may progress further than the previous build.
EbonHawk Jul 9 @ 5:09pm 
Couldn't find much on it really. I do remember it being a "big deal" though.

Look under D&D 2nd Edition rules at this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizard_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)

Not much I know. I think anything in Skyrim will have to be at the user's discretion. I haven't heard of a mod that limits you to different schools.

I remember when it came out in the late '80s, early '90s. It was to try and balance some of those wizards "that knew too much". Some were just smartasses. :-P

Skyrimnut Jul 9 @ 5:40pm 
Man, I think I need to call on Two Bears. If memory serves, HE was the one who made the comment when somebody mentioned that they cast from certain schools in a thread. I remember him posting that the build wasn't playing as a true representative of the class because they were casting from opposing schools.

The destruction school is the odd bird in Skyrim because it doesn't quite fit with a class, maybe Evocation? Illusion, Conjuration, and Restoration fit well. Alteration is an odd bird as well, and enchanting, because of soul gem use is weird too. Granted, this isn't D&D, but it'd be cool to play a class that was unable to cast in another school.

I do appreciate the comments so far though. It is probably not helping any of you at all that I'm very unfamiliar with this myself and my searchs online are probably worded incorrectly.

EbonHawk Jul 9 @ 5:52pm 
I would say Destruction and Restoration would have to be opposing schools. Just my opinion though.
Skyrimnut Jul 9 @ 5:55pm 
Originally posted by EbonHawk:
I would say Destruction and Restoration would have to be opposing schools. Just my opinion though.

At first glance yes, but I think Conjuration (the necromancy branch especially) and Restoration can also be opposing schools. Illusion and alteration can also be opposing.

Lol, we are all now giving ourselves a good brain fry here. :) It's fun.
Two Bears Jul 9 @ 6:05pm 
Originally posted by Skyrimnut:
Originally posted by EbonHawk:
I would say Destruction and Restoration would have to be opposing schools. Just my opinion though.

At first glance yes, but I think Conjuration (the necromancy branch especially) and Restoration can also be opposing schools. Illusion and alteration can also be opposing.

Lol, we are all now giving ourselves a good brain fry here. :) It's fun.

This is my interpretation as well. The restorative principles would fly opposite of raising the dead or communing with "demons", ie the black arts. As such, I always hold restoration and conjuration in opposition. Illusion and destruction oppose for me due to the primary use of magic being either to control or destroy. Alteration used to conflict with mysticism as one was about producing "enchantments" while the other was about dispelling them, but now I hold alteration as a free (albeit largely defensive) school that anyone can use.

EDIT: In regard to traditional D&D-style RPGing, Invocation (basically destruction in that system) opposes Enchantment (illusion-style magic, not actually enchanting). This is also a balance method in party role for a specialist wizard. Note that the wizard may also choose not to specialize in a particular school as to avoid dealing with opposing schools, but are not given the bonus spell memorization slot per level.
Last edited by Two Bears; Jul 9 @ 6:11pm
Skyrimnut Jul 9 @ 6:08pm 
Originally posted by Two Bears:
Originally posted by Skyrimnut:

At first glance yes, but I think Conjuration (the necromancy branch especially) and Restoration can also be opposing schools. Illusion and alteration can also be opposing.

Lol, we are all now giving ourselves a good brain fry here. :) It's fun.

This is my interpretation as well. The restorative principles would fly opposite of raising the dead or communing with "demons", ie the black arts. As such, I always hold restoration and conjuration in opposition. Illusion and destruction oppose for me due to the primary use of magic being either to control or destroy. Alteration used to conflict with mysticism as one was about producing "enchantments" while the other was about dispelling them, but now I hold alteration as a free school that anyone can use.

YES! YES! That's what I remember you saying. Thank you! So I can do a mage that does Destruction, Alteration, and Restoration and not be in opposition.

And I guess Enchanting is also now free? The whole soul-trapping thing is a bit dodgy. Not fill your own gems perhaps, or only used found or purchased gems?


Two Bears Jul 9 @ 6:15pm 
Originally posted by Skyrimnut:
Originally posted by Two Bears:

This is my interpretation as well. The restorative principles would fly opposite of raising the dead or communing with "demons", ie the black arts. As such, I always hold restoration and conjuration in opposition. Illusion and destruction oppose for me due to the primary use of magic being either to control or destroy. Alteration used to conflict with mysticism as one was about producing "enchantments" while the other was about dispelling them, but now I hold alteration as a free school that anyone can use.

YES! YES! That's what I remember you saying. Thank you! So I can do a mage that does Destruction, Alteration, and Restoration and not be in opposition.

And I guess Enchanting is also now free? The whole soul-trapping thing is a bit dodgy. Not fill your own gems perhaps, or only used found or purchased gems?

I have enchanting conflict with alchemy simply because I limit my wizards to one crafting discipline in order to simulate the volume of time and effort that would be required to master such a skill. I do have my good-aligned characters do the alchemy thing more often than not for the reasons that you said, as dealing with souls is pretty morally ambiguous at best. My neutral and evil characters have no problem doing so, but I will still use alchemy if it calls for it. I had a neutral evil warlock-type that was just really into poisons.

Also, see my edit above for the invocation-enchantment dichotomy.
Last edited by Two Bears; Jul 9 @ 6:17pm
Adura Jul 9 @ 6:21pm 
Originally posted by Two Bears:

I have enchanting conflict with alchemy

An alternate justification:

Enchanting is imbuing objects with magics. A creative process.

Alchemy is removing the magic from objects (the plants) into a form that you ingest. A destructive process.
Skyrimnut Jul 9 @ 6:22pm 
Originally posted by Two Bears:
Originally posted by Skyrimnut:

YES! YES! That's what I remember you saying. Thank you! So I can do a mage that does Destruction, Alteration, and Restoration and not be in opposition.

And I guess Enchanting is also now free? The whole soul-trapping thing is a bit dodgy. Not fill your own gems perhaps, or only used found or purchased gems?

I have enchanting conflict with alchemy simply because I to limit my wizards to one crafting discipline in order to simulate the volume of time and effort that would be required to master such a skill. I do have my good-aligned characters do the alchemy thing more often than not for the reasons that you said, as dealing with souls is pretty morally ambiguous at best. My neutral and evil characters have no problem doing so, but I will still use alchemy if it calls for it. I had a neutral evil warlock-type that was just really into poisons.

Thanks again, this helps. I know for a Requiem playthrough, I have to be pretty focused from the beginning and knowing which skills to hone in on before I do the playthrough is helpful. While I've played focused builds in the past, they tended to be hybrids, and that's not what I wanted to go for this time.

So, Destruction, Alteration, Restoration and either Enchanting or Alchemy. It may well be that'll I'll be forced into Alchemy as I plan on taking a risk and getting the Atronach stone, which gives a whopping 350 magicka, 50% spell absorption, but you are unable to regenerate ANY magicka. With an altmer's starting bonus and gear, mana pool may not be too much of an issue, but alchemy may be better at replacing what is lost than gear as no amount of mana regen gear will help, only spell cost reduction.
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