Munchman Jun 1, 2013 @ 7:58am
"That character is not a build character"
That's what someon just tol dme about the apprentice. So what is it then if it isn't?
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RicoX73 Jun 1, 2013 @ 8:19am 
In my optinion it's just a fine class for building. I have no idea why people say this, because this is the first class I played with when I played the game?
KisOThundr Jun 1, 2013 @ 8:25am 
It was my first too. People always spout 'truth.' You just need to knowwhen to tune out:)
McData Jun 1, 2013 @ 9:01am 
Sure, it is a build character ... but not for nightmare. NM build is dominated by other characters.
Palmer11 Jun 1, 2013 @ 9:23am 
Lies. Apprentice is actually 10x more effective within survival nmhc/mm than the squire. It uses the same tower stats as the squire. You only use one defense though, which is the Fire Tower. It creates a splash damage which effects multiple enemies, rather than one. I perfer to use fire towers than harps in all of my survivals.
Softspokenman Jun 1, 2013 @ 10:05am 
Originally posted by Palmer11:
Lies. Apprentice is actually 10x more effective within survival nmhc/mm than the squire. It uses the same tower stats as the squire. You only use one defense though, which is the Fire Tower. It creates a splash damage which effects multiple enemies, rather than one. I perfer to use fire towers than harps in all of my survivals.
lol no they are = but the squire has more survivability and the squire arrows pierces and hit all enemies in a straight line plus elemental immunities (fire is the most common fallowed by electric)will not stop a squires towers from hurting all enemies
Softspokenman Jun 1, 2013 @ 10:13am 
Originally posted by Munchman:
That's what someon just tol dme about the apprentice. So what is it then if it isn't?
sounds like he would be talking about your stats on the hero rather than the hero himself did you up resistance on the hero allot of players feel that that is a waste on builders
Palmer11 Jun 1, 2013 @ 10:59am 
Originally posted by Softspokenman:
Originally posted by Palmer11:
Lies. Apprentice is actually 10x more effective within survival nmhc/mm than the squire. It uses the same tower stats as the squire. You only use one defense though, which is the Fire Tower. It creates a splash damage which effects multiple enemies, rather than one. I perfer to use fire towers than harps in all of my survivals.
lol no they are = but the squire has more survivability and the squire arrows pierces and hit all enemies in a straight line plus elemental immunities (fire is the most common fallowed by electric)will not stop a squires towers from hurting all enemies

Survivability? You shouldnt have problems with them getting hit at all if your setup is done right. Yea, they can pierce through enemies, but they can’t aggravate the orges like the fire towers can. Your only worry within survivals should be ogres. That’s it. If you are having problems and losing health within your towers, then you should rethink your builds.
Avous Jun 1, 2013 @ 1:38pm 
Well, I already typed my reply out and lost it launching a game, plus I have to leave immediately so I decided, Let's teach people the meta with my time remaining! so I'll just give an abridged version.

At the bottom (I'll quintuple space it so you know where it starts), I'll teach the meta of survival.

Basically, the Apprentice was top dog pre NM and even early NM but were nerfed to the ground and never fully restored.

Phyiscal Beams > Magic Blockades.

Resizable, beefy as hell.

Strength Drain Aura/Ensnare Aura > Magic Blockades

Strength Drain cripples mobs and strips status immunity.

Ensnare slows the enemies and their attack rate.

Archer Minion > Magic Missile

360 vision, stronger, no DU cost.

Harpoon/Mage Minion = Fireball Tower

Harpoons have Infinite Pierce, no Status Effect, and damage scales better than Fireball Tower.

Mage Minions cost no DU, Do Splash Damage, and heal Minions. Enabling self sustaining Minion Walls

Electric Aura > Lightning Tower

Deals more damage, no warmup/cool down, less DU,and for the entirety of the Aura it's a sure hit.

Magic Missile > Deadly Striker Tower.

The only tower worse than Magic Missile for the apprentice.





Now I'll teach you of the end game Meta. This is why even though these towers can do NM campaign, They are equal to Squires.

The main problem people have on Survival isn't Ogres, it's Sharken, Djinn, and being over run.

The goal is to discard of all mobs but Ogres, Copters, and Djinn before they can approach your walls.

I'm a firm believer in Minion Walls but I'll give both representations.

First you need to lay out your walls to cover your chokes. For each choke, you may choose from the following.

Buff Beam, Reflection Beam, Ensnare, Strength Drain, Electric Auras, Archer, Spider*, Mage Minion, Harpoon Turret*, Fireball Tower*, Gas Trap*, Inferno Trap*, Proxy Trap*.

* Optional

Here's why.

Buff Beams increase towers, Damage, Speed, Area, and Resistance.

Reflection Beams brush away Copter Ogre missiles. Missiles deal the most damage of any mob and are the main reason your defenses fall on Buff Beams. Spider webs, Dark Elf Archer arrows, Dark Elf Mage fireballs, and Wyvern fireballs.

It's important to note two Single DU Reflection Beams are as long as a Three DU Reflection Beam.

Ensnare Auras decrease mobs animations and speeds making them generally weaker and giving you time to dispatch them.

Strength Drain Auras ensures every mob is slowed, fried, and cripples Ogres

Electric Auras are the main mob killer in Survival. Their goal is to filter out the weaker mobs to allow the three big ones to be focused on by your Physical Towers safely.

Dark Elf Archer Minions are a requirement because of their no DU cost, Great Damage, Resistance, and 360 vision. Ultimate Anti-Air/Spider.

Spider Minions are Optional but I use them at every choke. They web enemies. This doubles the damage recieved. Your Auras are suddenly doing 40,000 instead of 20,000. Archers are hitting for 400,000 instead of 200,000. Mages are now hitting 1,050,000 instead of 525,000. Making them more valuable than an extra Dark Elf Archer.

Dark Elf Mage Minions are required because of they can heal and maintain other Minions reasonably well (Not Towers, MINIONS). They enable AFK builds when using Minion Walls.

Harpoon Turrets have Infinite Pierce, do the most DPS out of any tower, Great Range, and there is no status immunity for Generic Damage.

Fireball Towers are the alternative to Harpoon Turrets, They do splash damage but do less damage than Harpoon Turrets making Fireball Towers on par with Harpoon Turrets, less damage. However, splash hits all ogres.

Gas Traps stun all enemies that enter the area allowing your defenses to pick them off.

Inferno Traps are useful like the Electric Aura is useful. they will ensure that everything dies in the duration of a Gas Trap.

Proxy Traps are a Risk VS Reward defense. It deals more Damge than Inferno Traps but without high Tower HP they will readily fall and ruin your survival.

Here's where you can get diverse. First, walls.

You need to place your Reflection Beams infront of your walls as Mobs won't hit the Reflection Beam it just filters out Projectiles.

You can use a Physical Beam and Tower Buff Beam ( Making a T shape) to make a really beefy wall.

Place your towers on the | of the T. I'd recommend this if your Summoner doesn't have a great Minion HP stat.

I use a wall of just a Buff Beam across the choke and fill it with Archers, with at least One Mage, and Spider Minion.

This makes a Minion Wall and it's got self sustaining capibilities. With decent stats you can AFK to late Survival with no worries.

After you make this choice you add Auras that are in the Line of Sight of Archers so Djinn can't destroy them.

Then your final choice boils down to Traps VS Harpoons.

Traps (Gas and Inferno/Proxy) will ensure your Electric Aura fry all mobs leaving your Archers to focus on the large threats.

If your Electric Auras are effectively frying mobs before they can reach your defenses, then you'd want to use Harpoons for additional DPS to Ogres, Djinn, and Copters.

I generally prefer Traps. Even though my Auras can deal with Mobs on their own. This is because I use Minion Walls. It's cheaper just to use Traps over adding another Buff Beam for Harpoons/Fireballs. Also it removes all targets for Sharken to charge at.

Those are your choices and the meta of Dungeon Defenders.

Apprentices do not have a tower that outshines any other class while each other class has their own perk and at least one tower that outshines the rest of the classes.
Super Cosmic Space Magnet Jun 1, 2013 @ 1:46pm 
Me bild ok
McData Jun 1, 2013 @ 2:53pm 
Originally posted by Palmer11:
Lies.

Please refrain from insulting - even, if perhaps unintentional !

Avous said it all: " The main problem people have on Survival isn't Ogres, it's Sharken, Djinn, and being over run."

You can do almost any map in NM survival without squire and appretice but you can hardly do without monk, summerer (+EV) and huntress.

And besides the discussion of harpoon vs. fire tower is as old as this world. Good to know that finally you once and for all solved that matter :-)

If at all I usually prefer harpoons because a) in narrow passages the arrows pierce through the ogers coming in line, b) arrows deal nicely with birds even if far away and c) the range of my harpoon is far greather than of my fire tower.

Once in a while I use a Deadly Striker Tower, because it is the tower with the highest accuracy. Whereas all other projectiles will be stopped by walls, ledges etc.
[101AB]taiiat Jun 1, 2013 @ 6:15pm 
Originally posted by McData:
Sure, it is a build character ... but not for nightmare. NM build is dominated by other characters.
i'm a fan of harpoons so i use them all the time just because telephone poles with an arrow on the front is pretty cool.
but, people are pretty bizzare on how they decide what they prefer. honestly, any build for Winter Wonderland that utilizes physical towers, uses fireballs instead of harpoons, because they are cheaper and because harpoons are almost entirely useless on WW. the groups of mobs are just too large for harpoons.

mage towers still should be a BIT better, but fireballs are quite useful for situations with tight corridors and lots and lots and lots of mobs.
Munchman Jun 1, 2013 @ 11:12pm 
I'm happy my thread has some good info in replies. We were on one of the early levels on insane setting, this is the first character I am using, learning the game. At the time I was about level 55 and put nearly all upgrades into towers.

So can you upgrade the apprentice with points for mana bomb and defenses so he is a good attacker? Or what?

McData Jun 1, 2013 @ 11:26pm 
I don't think that that would be useful spending of your precious points. He will be necer a good attacker. I'd say most advanced player would agree that you need a true dps character for NM. Most people use barbarian or (and) jester. But some use huntress or even EV.

I personally use barbarian, jester and (!) summerer.
Why was light? Jun 2, 2013 @ 1:28am 
yup
Munchman Jun 2, 2013 @ 2:09am 
Seems harsh the introductory character is no good in the end.
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Date Posted: Jun 1, 2013 @ 7:58am
Posts: 54