Sniper Elite 3: Here is what I would like to see.

[Thunderbaulz]

WW2 is over. The cold war is beginning. The Soviets want the A-bomb. Killing Nazis never gets old but I think with 3 trips to Berlin under our belt and Zombie Hitler dead it is time to move on. I would like to see our character now a spy on a mission to stop the Soviets from obtaining the A-bomb. I see our hero deep behind the Iron Curtain on a mission to keep that from happening. I think this era is ripe for covert sniper game play. Also, killing a Zombie Stalin at some point in the form of Zombie Red Army spin off would be pretty sweet too.

[triplanesubs739]

Too bad SEv3 is to be a pre-quell to Berlin via 1942-43 or earlier to the Africa Corps missions in and around Northern Africa helping the British,French,and the Americans duke it out with Rommel.Its coming out between Jan.2014 to March 2014.Hopefully it will have DLC's just like SEv2 add-ons and HOPEFULLY BETTER ANTI CHEATING SOFTWARE !!!

[Bozo4154]

I Agree, Anti Cheating is a must, Maybe they can only get their acheivments by doing so, I like to get them on my own skills which makes the game more playable, Would also be great to get behind the control of some tanks also WOULD BE AWSOME especially in 3D!

[Thunderbaulz]

The funny thing is I posted this right AFTER they released the trailer to Sniper Elite 3. Oops. Maybe they can read this and it might give them some ideas about Sniper Elite 4...or 5... or 6..or....

[triplanesubs739]

It would be nice if they included the De Lisne carbine,which was THE most silent of all silented firearms during WW2.Based on the Enfield rifle,chambered for the .45 cal. ACP,used the same clip as the .45 auto pistol,was very accurate out to 150 meters,and was so quiet they said the bolt action made more noise than the gun being fired !! Also include the 1895 Nagant Revolver,which was the only revolver,ever made,which could be fitted with a silencer,and be silent,even quieter then the Welrod !! Also include a personal gunsmith for the sniper to outfit HIS rifle with his preference of scopes,and zero in the gun to set ranges.

[Deadlylag]

I can assure you the .45 ACP which is subsonic will not be accurate at 150 meter. At 50 meter you can see the bullet and vapor trail on a humid day. At 100 meter you basically lob the bullet into the target.

Suppressor aren't Hollywood silent. Nowhere close. You need hearing protection shooting suppressed super-sonic ammo or you will get hearing damage. You might get away without hearing protection using subsonic ammo. It will still make enough noises for people to notices nearby due to the mechanical action of the firearm.

It is rare for WWII snipers to use scope. Scopes in the old days were unreliable. Iron sight was the way to go pre Vietnam. If fixed scopes aren't reliable you can bet that variable scopes won't be used. As a general rule snipers don't use variable scopes. They favor fix low magnification (4x) scope for reliability, clearness, and field of view.

Anyway, I haven't played V2 but finished zombie army and the original game. Most of my shots were 150 yards or less. A child could do that without any difficulties. Maybe increase it 500 yards and greater that's where people starts having trouble, in real life tho.

I also notice in Zombie Army that the handling of the weapons are unrealistic, namely the recoil.

[poliwhirl]

• Sandbox (verified)
  
• open-world
  
• customizable weapons (realistically speaking)
  
• all missions can be done on stealth runs alone
  
• longer distances
  
• weather affects the visibility, endurance of the sniper, and obscures the sound of shots (thunder)
  
• ability to hide in certain places/objects like a vehicle
  
• smarter AI
  
• more classes of AI
  
• choices make a difference in campaign mode
  
• easter eggs

Enemy soldier classes
1. rifleman (w/ bayonet :D)
2. assult trooper (think sub-machine gun)
3. engineers (think demolition team, makes for some fun and unexpected kills from enemy dynamites :D)
4. marksman/sniper
5. machine gunner (stationary, but lots of firepower)

[723rd C.A.T.]

Deadlylag a écrit :

I can assure you the .45 ACP which is subsonic will not be accurate at 150 meter. At 50 meter you can see the bullet and vapor trail on a humid day. At 100 meter you basically lob the bullet into the target.

Suppressor aren't Hollywood silent. Nowhere close. You need hearing protection shooting suppressed super-sonic ammo or you will get hearing damage. You might get away without hearing protection using subsonic ammo. It will still make enough noises for people to notices nearby due to the mechanical action of the firearm.

It is rare for WWII snipers to use scope. Scopes in the old days were unreliable. Iron sight was the way to go pre Vietnam. If fixed scopes aren't reliable you can bet that variable scopes won't be used. As a general rule snipers don't use variable scopes. They favor fix low magnification (4x) scope for reliability, clearness, and field of view.

Anyway, I haven't played V2 but finished zombie army and the original game. Most of my shots were 150 yards or less. A child could do that without any difficulties. Maybe increase it 500 yards and greater that's where people starts having trouble, in real life tho.

I also notice in Zombie Army that the handling of the weapons are unrealistic, namely the recoil.

How loud is a De Lisle? Maximum effective range is also described http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsUALdGog4U



You have no idea what you are talking about.I just wanted to point that out.Even the most basic research can proove every statement you just made incorrect.WWII scope where highly reilable the most common soviet scope the PU is so well made many are still in use in private hands.You can buy them for about $300~$500 a pop still very accurate.

What on earth makes you think that optics where some how "unreliable" during WWII is beyond me 20 years earlier in WWI they where using highly effective and reliable optics.why on earth people do as you do and spout utter nonsense that is easily prooven to factually inaccurate is beyond me.

I highly reccomned that you do not even attempt to make a counter agrument.If you do I will not hesiate to provide extensive data to proove every single statement you have made is incorrect.Trust me you do not want to even try it I have avidly stuied military history for over 20 years most likely longer than you have been alive.

[Deadlylag]

This will be a good learning experience for you. Also there will be a link (number 13) to the greatest sniper in history, Simo Häyhä. It's a very good interview.

Here is my experience in firearms. Almost 200 firearms (NFA and non-NFA firearms) in my collection. With over 25 years shooting guns and at a competitive level. So don't debate me on firearms, I know my stuff.

1. .45ACP is a subsonic so there is no sonic boom. Like the video pointed out and what I posted, you can get away away without using ear protection. He stated correctly super sonic bullets with suppressor will be over 100 decibel. Anything over 100 decibel will damage your hearing.

2. At 85 decibel the chart below stated, busy city traffic. So it is not Hollywood quit but you can get away without hearing protection, again as I stated. Now you understand decibel range clearly.

http://www.hearos.com/images/decibel-chart-ear-plugs.jpg

http://www.industrialnoisecontrol.com/comparative-noise-examples.htm

https://www.google.com/search?q=decible+chart&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#q=decibel+chart&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&spell=1

3. Standard .45ACP stats is 230grain bullet, between 5-6 grain of powder(depending on the type). Muzzle velocity is below 900fps (subsonic). Compare to a 7.62NATO round which is 180 grain bullet between 40-50grain powder(depend on the type of powder) going over 2500fps muzzle velocity.

4. From the ballistics table below which I google because it is faster than using my ballistics calculator. A 230 grain .45ACP below 900fps will drop almost 7 inches at 100 yard. I pointed out that at 50 yards you can see the .45 ACP going in the air with vapor trail. The .45 ACP is a very big, very slow bullet.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_trajectory_table.htm

5. Accuracy isn't base on hitting the X in a target. Accuracy is base on MOA. Accuracy is base on consistency. I won't discus minute of angle (MOA). It will take 10 pages of writing. You can however watch the video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA2PZBD5Tjg

6. If you watched the video above and understand MOA. The smaller the grouping (MOA) the more accurate the rifle/bullet/skill. At my prime I could put 5 bullets .25MOA @ 100 yard with my .308 or .223 rifle. A US dime is around .70 MOA. In other words I can put 5 bullets inside a dime @ 100 yards using match ammo.

7. When you're dealing with firearm/skill accuracy, it about consistency. So getting 5 or 10 bullets grouping below 1 MOA consistently is very accurate. Combat accuracy is 4MOA @ 100 yards IIRC. It is not about hitting the X. It's about grouping.

8. I can shot a .45 ACP carbine and might hit the target at 200 yards. It is however not accurate because the grouping will be 25 to 50MOA? I don't know just making the number out but it won't be combat accurate which is 4MOA @ 100 yards or lower.

9. There are books about rifle scopes. So I won't go into detail about it. Pre-Vietnam scopes are really bad. Very unreliable. Rifle scope was at it infancy back then. A $25 Wal-Mart scope made in China is clearer and more reliable than what they were using in WWII.

10. Combat reliable means the rifle drop to the ground and it will not lose zero or break the glass. WWII scopes are not combat reliable.

11. WWII glass are not clear. At long range there will be huge parallax/distortion in the glass which make WWII scope pretty much useless. They didn't have a full understanding or technology to fix the problem. Even Vietnam era scopes is nowhere near today standard.

http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=2178
http://gunsmagazine.com/parallax-and-distortion/

12. WWII glass are not fog proof. That means scopes will consistently fog up. Making them useless in combat. They did not have the technology to put Nitrogen or Argon inside the scope to prevent fogging.

13. The greatest sniper in history did not use a scope. In his own words they were useless. With over 500 confirmed sniper kills and a few hundred non-sniper rifle kills, Simo Häyhä is a legend among his profession.

http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/simohayha.asp

"He had been given a Swedish Mauser equipped with a scope but he preferred the M28 or M28/30 to the scoped rifle . Häyhä noted the Swedish "sniper" rifle was given to him by a wealthy a Swedish buisnessman but the details of this rifle are not clear. The Swedes did not produce a scoped sniper rifle in 1939 so it is possible what was given to him was a Husqvarna made hunting rifle. Simo Häyhä told us there were many reasons he liked his Mosin Nagant over the scoped Mauser. One was that the Mosin was more suited to his size of 160cm. He also stated that the scoped rifle forced him to raise his head a bit more than he liked, and this added profile might have given a Red Army sharpshooter too good of a target. He also made the point that he had always used iron sights and was used to them. Lastly iron sights were not prone to breakage or fogging which was a real worry in the snow and ice of Finland during the Winter War. "

14. The main reason why modern day military snipers used suppressor is not to reduce sound. They use it to eliminate muzzle flash. You can redirect sound but not light in natural surrounding.

15. Lastly if anyone doubt me. Go to a gun range. Rent or buy a .45ACP firearms. Shoot at 7 yards, than 15, 25, 50, 100, and 150. Come back and tell me I'm wrong.

[poliwhirl]

I've never held a gun before ;w;

>tfw no moist nugget to kill nazi scum with

[triplanesubs739]

There is a big difference between shooting .45 ACP thru a 6 inch barrel and shooting the same type of ammo thru a De Lisle carbine,which has a 14 inch barrel,with silencer,generates around 1,100 fps. Sound supression is usually in the 30 to 35 desibels,I know one of my best friend's is a class 3 firearms manufacturer.He built a De Liste and fully tested it against all known and a few highly experimental silenced weapons.Of all the weapons which use gunpowder as a launching reaction,usablity,and long term use,the De Liste IS the weapon of choice.Most modern silenced weapons are in need of cleaning after so many rounds,like the Welrod needs to be rebuilt after 26 to 30 rounds,due to the use of rubber and crude plastic parts,40 decibels. Plus the .45 ACP round acts like a freight train once it leaves the barrel,it doesn't loose its velocity that quikely. The carbine was "very good" out to 150 meters MAXIMUM. True MOA was and still is very losey,but head shots was only pratical out to 50 meters,this was one weapon which some 85 percent of the kill shots were body shots.

[723rd C.A.T.]

triplanesubs739 a écrit :

There is a big difference between shooting .45 ACP thru a 6 inch barrel and shooting the same type of ammo thru a De Lisle carbine,which has a 14 inch barrel,with silencer,generates around 1,100 fps.

Yeah I agree this is what I hate about the internet.first you have someone who has no idea what they are talking about post utter nonsense.Then you have another person who has no idea what they are talking do a buch of half assed researh and then make a smoke blowing claim about how many guns they own and how cool they are post a bunch more nonsense becuase they fail to realize that what they post only serves to show that they do not know what they are talking about.

And the weak ass argument of one guy Simo Häyhä who did in fact prefer to use iron sights as if that was the standard that everyone else followed. Of course older scopes where not as good as modern scopes that is beyond the point.Of course they fogged some that is beyonf the point.Of course a supressor is not totally silent that is beyond the point.

Your(DEadlylag) links proove nothing at all becuase they are not even discussing older optics beyond the fact that they where of course not as a good as modern optics that in no way means that they where useless.Becasue Häyhä prefered not to use optics is irrelvant.If you knew what you where talking about you'd know that the Soviets and Germans in particular had very well made scopes that allowed them to engage targets at very long ranges even beyond 1000m.

Here is some real dirt on WWII sniping tactics in general USE OF OOPTICS.
http://www.sniperforums.com/forum/misc/3284-interview-3-german-ww2-snipers.html

Sepp Allerberger wrote a book about his experiance as a sniper on the Eastern Front seesm that some people have not read it as in it he goes into very great detail about tactis and use of scopes amoung other thigns.He used opitcs almost exclusively various German scopes and also Russian ones but ah he must just be a huge liar.And that is only one sniper whose persoanl experiance I have read who goes into great deatil about their experiance yet oddly makes no complaints about how useless a scope was.

I always love the "I own X number of firearms therefore I am an expert" claim.Hmm I am 6 feet tall and I played basketball a few times that just makes me an expert center.

[Deadlylag]

I pretty sure you never shot a firearm before. You have no understand of basic firearm knowledge. All your sources came from movies and video games.

I play around with Soviet optics and you what? They suck. They suck really bad compare to western version. Not clear and not reliable. Soviet is not known for quality only quantity.

I posted my facts down with sources. I even give you the opinion of the greatest sniper in history in regard to rifle scope.

I will replied to triplanesubs739 post shortly.

[Deadlylag]

triplanesubs739 a écrit :

There is a big difference between shooting .45 ACP thru a 6 inch barrel and shooting the same type of ammo thru a De Lisle carbine,which has a 14 inch barrel,with silencer,generates around 1,100 fps. Sound supression is usually in the 30 to 35 desibels,I know one of my best friend's is a class 3 firearms manufacturer.He built a De Liste and fully tested it against all known and a few highly experimental silenced weapons.Of all the weapons which use gunpowder as a launching reaction,usablity,and long term use,the De Liste IS the weapon of choice.Most modern silenced weapons are in need of cleaning after so many rounds,like the Welrod needs to be rebuilt after 26 to 30 rounds,due to the use of rubber and crude plastic parts,40 decibels. Plus the .45 ACP round acts like a freight train once it leaves the barrel,it doesn't loose its velocity that quikely. The carbine was "very good" out to 150 meters MAXIMUM. True MOA was and still is very losey,but head shots was only pratical out to 50 meters,this was one weapon which some 85 percent of the kill shots were body shots.

I don't own a De Lisle and never have the experience of shooting it. I do have a lot of experience shooting suppressed firearms. I'm going on the technical data of the carbine from wiki and the video.

You are right most suppressor reduce sound by 30-40 decibel. You are also correct that increase in barrel length will increase FPS and accuracy to a certain degree. There is a hard limit.

With that said, Wiki and the video pointed out 230gr .45ACP is subsonic out of the De Lisle. Super Sonic speed is 1100fps at sea level. Both sources said it is at 85 decibel suppressed. If the bullet is traveling supersonic speed it will not be at 85 decibel surpessed. It will be over 100 decibel suppressed, that means you need hearing protection. Suppressor does not suppress the crackling noises when a bullet traveling at supersonic speed.

It either supersonic or subsonic leaving out of the muzzle. It can't be both. From what the video and wiki pointed out it leave the barrel subsonic.

85 decibel is not Hollywood quiet. Hollywood quiet is sub 20 decibel. It is impossible to get real life firearm to sub 20 decibel.

I pretty sure at 150 yard a 230gr .45acp will not have enough energy/penetration power to incapacitate an enemy. It still hurt tho.

A 230gr bullet traveling below 900fps at muzzle will lose speed pretty fast. The lost of speed means less penetration. Again the .45 is a very big, heavy, and slow moving projectile.

Again accuracy in regard to firearms is base on grouping (MOA) and consistency. .45ACP will not be accurate at 150 yards.

[triplanesubs739]

When my friend tested his De liste carbine,here are some of the results. From 150 yards,shooting at a 1 foot by 1 foot by 3 foot long ballistic gel.He fired 10 rounds from a bench rest,only six hit the gel !!! Deepest pennetration was 5 inches. Using open sights,from 100 yards fired 10 shots at the other end of the gel block,hit 8 times,deepest pennetration was 8 1/2 inches.

[Deadlylag]

What's the MOA? Give me the unedited video of shooting 5 rounds MOA. Do it 10 times. That's one box of ammo. It should show me the level of accuracy in the carbine.

FBI minimum penetration is 12 inch in ballistic gel. 12 inch is the magic number in the eye of FBI and ballistic scientists. 12 inch is the absolute minimum requirement for a projectile to penetrate deep enough to get to vital organ in the human body.

At 5 inch I doubt it will penetrate winter clothing. At 8.5 inch it might penetrate winter clothing and do some damage. It will not penetrate a WWII helmet or a naked human skull.

For those that want to learn more about ballistic and wonder where the magic 12inch number came from, keep reading. It's very educational.

Rifle>Shotgun>Pistol. Keep this in mind.

The military deals mainly in rifle because rifle and shotgun are classified as offensive small arms. Pistol are defensive small arms. The US military spend a lot of money trying to make better rifles and deadlier rifle calibers. So over the decades rifle bullets research with military money far surpass pistol.

The most famous gun fight in America history is O.K Corral, Tombstone. Tones of movies and countless of hours studying what happen at Tombstone. The second most studied gunfight is the 1986 Miami Shootout. I won't go into detail about the Miami Gun fight, you can read about it in the link below. I highly recommend reading it.

http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html

In a nut shell the bullets they were using failed and FBI agents paid with their lives. It sent shock wave throughout the US law enforcement community. In the aftermath the FBI immediately pour millions of money into researching, understanding, and developing pistol calibers.

The finial result with tens of millions spent and the best ballistic minds in the field. The FBI came up with the magic number of 12 inch. The magic caliber is the .40S&W a neck down 10mm. The magic gun that use the .40S&W is the Glock 22.

Over night almost every police forces that could afford it switched to .40S&W and Glock 22. Glock became the most popular handgun brand in US. To this day Glock own both law enforcement and civilian market. The .40S&W is the prefer caliber for pistol in law enforcement and civilian. With that said I carry a Glock 19 for over 20 years.

Independent ballistic gel testing. Good site.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/

I don't like quoting from wiki but it is the fastest way to find the 12inch magic number. It's under penetration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power