Jester Mar 28 @ 12:05am
TO ALL NEWBIES
instead of whining and complaing on this forum about being constatnly kicked and messing everybody's game up keep running off or going down etc, why don't you do the descent thing and do what i did when i first got the game?
i dare not touch versus etc until i done all the campaigns from easy to expert and got all the achievments first!!!! by the time i went to versus i knew all the campaigns inside out and could walk through them all in my head so i knew where to go and what to do so when i did goto versus i would not mess up anyone's game and i never got kicked and played like a pro after a couple of weeks.
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Restless Mar 28 @ 12:11am 
These posts go nowhere. While your point is valid and many veterans including myself will agree that you should play campaign thoroughly before you try versus, the people who complain about getting kicked constantly and messing up others games do not care about other players, they only care about their personal level of fun. You will also be met with the "Its just a game", or "I play for fun", or more colloquially the "Get a life" arguments from these players. They do not want to learn by reading guides or practicing in campaigns first, they just want to play and they somehow feel that their needs trump that of others.

Newbies who are interested in improving themselves know that there are guides on Steam, videos on YouTube, and streams on Twitch to pursue that will save them hundreds if not thousands of hours of trial and error, and they also know that getting votekicked from a game is not the end of the world and not a reason to whine on the forums.

Its the noobs who just want to have fun by themselves and want it now, without doing the research first and without caring about what the other people in the game find 'fun'. They jump into public versus games by themselves with their <100 hours of experience and then wonder why they get kicked for making mistakes or playing without a clue of what to do.

To all new players, I encourage you to read guides and watch videos, and check this forum post if you have any questions:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/550/discussions/0/558751179401182547/
The skill cap in this game is higher than you think, and the learning curve is steeper than you think.

In before the flame/troll war begins from both sides.
Last edited by Restless; Mar 28 @ 12:14am
|x|Sirius|x| Mar 28 @ 12:20am 
I have asked this before (and was ignored, oh wonder), but perhaps you can explain something to me:

I am fully aware (and absolutely agree) that one must first learn the basics of the game - And the best way is playing campaign, obviously.

BUT, the one thing I fail to understand is this:
How on earth is someone who has played xxx hours of campaign supposed to be any good on vs? They never played the infected before, for one thing. So they would totally suck at that. They are not used to the raised number of special infected (meaning they spawn much faster than in campaign). They are not used to SI played by gamers who know every trick, every good spawn, etc.

So, someone who is (really or adequately) good at campaign will still get totally roflstomped when going into vs, causing the exact same crap to happen, like getting insta-kicked (because he made a slight whoopsy choosing his spawn point, or taking two seconds too long choosing a point, whatever)

Now, I don't really care for versus (again, mostly because the L4D2 community is so charming), so I get my versus kick with close friends, or even alone or with fewer people (that wonderful mod). But all I see is people telling other people to "get guid" before going versus, giving them absolutely no chance to learn what versus is about.

From my point of view, playing campaign means nothing compared to versus.
(besides the nessecary base knowledge, ofc)

Serious question, not trying to be a smartass here. I really don't see how that would work, the community being like it is (mostly).
|x|Sirius|x| Mar 28 @ 12:26am 
@Restless, I agree with your point concerning "true" noobs (the whiners, the entitled brats and so forth).
Just wanted to make that clear.
Also, your point about guides and vids is valid, too.
Still no patch on the real thing, I think - Real practice is needed, theory only gets you so far.
Jester Mar 28 @ 12:32am 
on versus at least when they first play they learn but they won't mess up being survivors so they are less likey to get kicked. if a newbie came into the game and told me that they completed all campaigns on expert and they are new to the versus side then i will have total respect for that person for doing that first and i will then train that person and instruct them what to do all the way through. they made the effort so i will do the same in instructing them and helping them all the way. quite possibly add them as a friend and just do a verus not public so just us on each side and train them
Last edited by Jester; Mar 28 @ 12:32am
|x|Sirius|x| Mar 28 @ 12:59am 
Seems like a good stance, thank you for your thoughts on my question.

Still, the way things are in L4D2, I am going out on a limb here and assume you are one of the rare "correct" players.
All that wouldn't be a problem if a big part of the community wouldn't be so *badwords*.
Meaning both sides of the extreme, of course.
Last edited by |x|Sirius|x|; Mar 28 @ 1:00am
Restless Mar 28 @ 1:02am 
Originally posted by |x|Sirius|x|:
I have asked this before (and was ignored, oh wonder), but perhaps you can explain something to me:

I am fully aware (and absolutely agree) that one must first learn the basics of the game - And the best way is playing campaign, obviously.

BUT, the one thing I fail to understand is this:
How on earth is someone who has played xxx hours of campaign supposed to be any good on vs? They never played the infected before, for one thing. So they would totally suck at that. They are not used to the raised number of special infected (meaning they spawn much faster than in campaign). They are not used to SI played by gamers who know every trick, every good spawn, etc.

So, someone who is (really or adequately) good at campaign will still get totally roflstomped when going into vs, causing the exact same crap to happen, like getting insta-kicked (because he made a slight whoopsy choosing his spawn point, or taking two seconds too long choosing a point, whatever)

Now, I don't really care for versus (again, mostly because the L4D2 community is so charming), so I get my versus kick with close friends, or even alone or with fewer people (that wonderful mod). But all I see is people telling other people to "get guid" before going versus, giving them absolutely no chance to learn what versus is about.

From my point of view, playing campaign means nothing compared to versus.
(besides the nessecary base knowledge, ofc)

Serious question, not trying to be a smartass here. I really don't see how that would work, the community being like it is (mostly).

Yes, the skills you learn from campaign do not all directly translate to versus, but a lot of things do help to an extent. Its important to learn map layouts and item/weapon spawn locations. Its important to know how to proceed through the map quickly and how not to go down to the first horde that swarms you. You have to know how to anticipate and counter SI attacks, and campaign does teach you that, albeit in a much more controlled fashion and at a slower pace. You'll still learn the different SI sounds and how to determine directionality.

People who practice in campaign first still run the risk of getting votekicked for making mistakes. Even the most experienced veterans of the game, including top competitive players, get votekicked from public versus games occasionally. However, practicing in campaign first at least lets you recognize your mistake and learn from it, or lets you tell the difference between someone kicking you over a mistake and someone simply trolling you.

There are players in versus who throw biles at witches, pipe bombs at tanks and molotovs at hunters, or stand next to you reloading while you're pinned by an SI. They stand on cars and wonder how they get incapped by tanks. They stay in one spot trying to wait out a horde that doesn't end, or they start panic events before people are ready. They scour the map for an AK instead of running forward to the static spawn around the corner. There are countless errors that new players make that should be learned in campaign (or other means) first without wasting 7 others time in a competitive setting like versus.

Regardless of how little you think playing campaign benefits you, it still does prepare you leaps and bounds ahead of fresh newbies in versus, and makes you a better asset to your teammates. Most people just take for granted what they learn from campaign because it becomes second nature so quickly. You do have to actively choose to improve yourself though, and you should play campaign with the mindset of improving yourself in versus. This includes avoiding the glitch-out spots where AI controlled units cannot attack you, and also learning how to move through hordes instead of camping in corners waiting for them to end. Its more advantageous to play campaign with the intent of practicing skills that can translate to the versus setting.
|x|Sirius|x| Mar 28 @ 1:07am 
Thanks to you, too.
Of course, much of what you say I already conceded - a really bloody newbie would be just frustrating for all sides, so the play-the-game-until-you-know-whats-what is definitely neccessary, no question about it.

Again, thank you both, this "problem" had me thinking for quite some time.
Seemed like a paradox - Get good at that mode without actually playing it.

I still think a fresh-from-the-campaign player will get stomped something cruel, but with "true" players like yourselves, there might still be hope for this game.
Cheers!
Restless Mar 28 @ 1:13am 
Originally posted by |x|Sirius|x|:
Thanks to you, too.
Of course, much of what you say I already conceded - a really bloody newbie would be just frustrating for all sides, so the play-the-game-until-you-know-whats-what is definitely neccessary, no question about it.

Again, thank you both, this "problem" had me thinking for quite some time.
Seemed like a paradox - Get good at that mode without actually playing it.

I still think a fresh-from-the-campaign player will get stomped something cruel, but with "true" players like yourselves, there might still be hope for this game.
Cheers!

You're welcome. At the very least, playing campaign first allows you to make a friend with whom you can play versus in order to avoid getting votekicked (but even then, getting stomped constantly as survivors in versus doesn't really help you, and then you just end up watching the other team run through the map when its your turn to play infected).
Utnubu Mar 28 @ 2:49am 
L4D2 is easy enough that, if you're competent at FPS play, you should be able to walk into VS day one and at least be passable. You might need a little instruction here and there, but most things are common sense. Mistakes happen regardless of your skill level, although you will see a much lower frequency of mistakes from comp players. If you walk into vs pubs and can't clear secured survivors or kill infected, then go play a different video game because you obviously aren't meant to be shooting virtual guns.
deadmau7 Mar 28 @ 2:50am 
Originally posted by |x|Sirius|x|:
I have asked this before...

I'll share some thoughts (hopefully, you'll find them to be adequate as answers):

- Versus adds the element of being able to control special infected as part of playing against another team playing as the survivors. While it's understandable that getting used to playing a SI will require at least some in-match experience, you musn't forget that playing as the infected makes up only half of the versus match. You'll get to play as a survivor eventually, and actually being able to survive is just as (if not more) important as being able to take the other team down.
Consider four players who have had a significant amount of proper experience playing Realism (we won't even need to consider the level of difficulty here). No doubt, they'd have picked up a couple of good habits; understood the importance of situational awareness; gained knowledge of maps, the routes of each specific map, its item spawn points, the events/points at particular areas where survivors are likely to face difficulty, etc.. Throw these players into a versus game. Now, they may not have had much experience with playing as the SI, and thus their team might not do too well when they play as the infected. But as survivors, I can imagine the team confidently moving through the map with ease. Playing in this manner may not mean that your team will win each round of a versus match, but it does mean you won't get completely thrashed in terms of points, keeping the opportunity of reversing the outcome of the whole match open. See what I'm getting at? If you as a single player were to enter a versus match with the skill to survive well, you'd become quite the asset. From personal experience, I can tell you that good players will see value in that, and will be willing to work with you in improving your skills.

- I understand that not everyone pays enough attention to Dota 2 and its community to notice the following point, but nonetheless it should make sense to you. I don't play much Dota 2 myself, but I have friends who invest as much time in it as I do in L4D2, and much of their conversations concerning Dota 2 revolve around videos/replays of matches that they've spectated, particularly professional scrims and tournament matches. From there, they pick up and share certain key strategies and tips and then apply it into their own matches. They watch each others' replays and point out each others' mistakes and weaknesses. Now, these friends of mine are casual gamers (yes, they have lives outside of gaming - sports, nightclubs, girlfriends - the whole package), and yet they have no qualms about studying the game and learning from players better than themselves. If there's one thing lacking from this community and its new players, it's this particular habit: Watching and learning from videos and written guides.
There are a number of fantastic player-written guides out there that can make all the difference in the way a person can play the game (Restless himself has made a couple of remarkable guides as well as a thread with tips for beginners, good job bro). There are video commentaries and walkthroughs for every default L4D2 campaign and more on Youtube. There are live streams of scrims and there's even a major L4D2 tournament taking place currently. New players have no excuse to say that there's no other way to learn how to play as a SI or how gameplay as the infected works. Really, if new players don't put in any effort to learn how the game works and yet expect more experienced players to stoop down to their level just so that these newbies can have fun at the expense of the whole match, they're just setting themselves up for disappointment. This cannot be emphasized enough. Not when I still see players with no knowledge of what the hunter's basic attack is.

- Just a minor point worth considering to end off: Playing as a survivor should allow anyone to see how a SI attacks or should attack. A boomer in the open is easy picking for the survivors. It's easy for one to avoid a spitter's spit if there are no other common or special infected around. Spot an approaching tank? Throw a molotov in its path and make killing it a lot easier. Avoid the witch if you can't kill it without harming the team significantly. With all this in mind, it should be easy for a player with at least some experience playing the campaign to have a grasp on basic dos-and-don'ts when playing as a SI. We don't even have to consider a player's skill here. A little bit of logical deduction will go a long way.

I was thinking I should do a tl;dr, but I've decided that if the reader can't be bothered to at least skim through the post to pick up the points, he/she either doesn't need to know what this post is about or isn't worth the effort and help that I or any other helpful L4D2 player out there can provide.
|x|Sirius|x| Mar 28 @ 3:43am 
Wow, haha, did I poke a nest of "Good Guys"? ;)

Seriously, though, I do get the ideas behind all this, and as I said much further up, I do play versus, if only with close friends (RL ones, even), and I think with decent players (meaning people like you guys - attitude-wise) I could very well hold my own in a public match - I just don't want to.

My point was simply that I have experienced myself (first by using that awesome mod, later with full friends lobby 4v4) that just playing campaign didn't do anything to help the fact that I had no clue how to properly use the SI, for starters. Ofc I knew how to save my squaddies (as survivors) when they got pinned, smokered, whatever - But the fact that the SI can position themselves for spawning didn't help, either.

Also I fancy myself an above average FPS-er, I played those things basically since the original Wolfenstein (Pre-Doom, just to be clear), so I didn't even need much effort with the first L4D back then. Basically, I got into the SI very fast after a few pointers from my brother (who is one of the above-500-hours veterans). I still got pwned so hard I questioned my experience or maybe suspected my age starting to show.

And then I tried to imagine how a fairly new player who manages ok in campaign would look in versus. *shudder*

Anyways, thanks again for all your friendly and conclusive input.
Maybe we can "force" some real newbies to read this. Eh, fat chance.

Seeing that this community still has good people left, I might grab my bro and start pubbing, maybe I'l see you in-game.
snake604 {Team Razer Sharp} Mar 28 @ 7:45am 
ok here is wut i think u gotta give em a chance and then kick em if they suck balls but i still i agree with xsirus
Robot-Friend Mar 28 @ 10:09am 
I don't think newbies know about steam forums, so this thread is useless ^^. (Seriously)
[†]Munkee_King[†] Mar 28 @ 1:09pm 
Better idea..

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=186808048

The other team survivor bots are stronger than you.
work as a team.
and it is a real challenge, But great practice..

(Dead center finale is their only flaw. Rest of every campaign they start events.)

Plus, I first played versus after I learned the basics and the levels..
I didn't need to beat it in expert, doesn't help you much.
Because you are playing against thinking people. The SI bots are obvious when they spawn, cuz they stand 2 inchs from you before hiding.

The humans spawn together and wait to jump you. so stopping 1 hunter is easy, stoping 1 hunter, then a smoker, and charger, after a boomer has blinded you.. alot different. My opinion.
Last edited by [†]Munkee_King[†]; Mar 28 @ 1:15pm
Merle Dixon Mar 28 @ 1:19pm 
Jezuz people, don't break your arms pattin' yourselfs on the back.
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Date Posted: Mar 28 @ 12:05am
Posts: 45