Apheirox Jan 16, 2014 @ 4:04am
Annoying things about the 'metagame'
1) Commanders will ALWAYS get the shift hive first because it's 'the meta'. The shift isn't necessarily the better choice - crag may be better saved for later because speed and stealth is arguably more useful for skulks, but skillful usage of the shade upgrades are easily as good as celerity, especially on maps that offer good hiding spots. Phantom, for example, lets you run instead of crawl towards marines from their blind angle so it is a lot like celerity in addition to the invisibility. Regardless, it's just boring seeing the shift upgrades first in EVERY match.

2) No fade upgrades ever. Fade upgrades have been deemed useless and so commanders will never get them regardless of how many or how early fades are on the team. Problem is: the fade upgrades are actually very good when used correctly, even the 'terrible' stab/vortex combo. Also: No shadow shift for the entire match?

Try a few new things some time, khammanders!
Last edited by Apheirox; Jan 16, 2014 @ 4:06am
Showing 1-15 of 27 comments
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R1B$ Jan 16, 2014 @ 5:22am 
Higher lifeforms being stuck on two hives with shade is the worst thing ever, especially onos.

Shade is for people who are ready to concede at the first sign of trouble or if the win is guaranteed either way via 3-hive, I don't think people are playing the long game by going straight to shade. I actually don't mind crag first and shift second though. Only time I'd take shade is if I'm confident marines will be stuck rebuilding their 3 res nodes over and over.

As for fade upgrades, it's more a question of lifeform ratio and decision making. Good fades don't need the upgrade as much as skulks need leap or gorges needing bile or pretty much anything else.

I don't mind trying interesting strats, but some marine commanders have literally went double robotics at the start of the game...was it trying something new? Sure...was it a good idea?
Last edited by R1B$; Jan 16, 2014 @ 5:24am
Daxx Jan 16, 2014 @ 6:36am 
Going Shift first is 100% pub situation and skill based.

It's like going fast phase gates or fast armor one on marines. If you don't know your team and the relative skill of the players, they are the "safe strats" that work well for the vets and are supportive of rookies.

Your right that Shade hive is very powerful in the start of the game for skulks, but so many players just start crouch-walking and cloak camping (and stop being agressive) that you lose that advantage. Plus as R1B$ stated, once the midgame/engame starts and your higher lifeforms don't have shell or spur upgrades they are highly gimped. Sure they can still be played, but they simply play BETTER with those upgrades in the hands of the average player.

As for Fades, there is a very large skill requirement to using one to make the investment into both the lifeform and upgrades worth it. So same idea, unless you know you have skilled Fade players, your res is simply better spent getting all the other upgrades first.
Camulos#linux Jan 16, 2014 @ 9:48am 
i CANT STAND commanders that dont do shift first! shade is the worst to go first. Gorges NEED adreline so does fade if you can go fade early. And i simply cant kill for ♥♥♥♥ without speed as a skulk.
Apheirox Jan 16, 2014 @ 4:49pm 
Originally posted by R1B$:
Shade is for people who are ready to concede at the first sign of trouble or if the win is guaranteed either way via 3-hive, I don't think people are playing the long game by going straight to shade. I actually don't mind crag first and shift second though. Only time I'd take shade is if I'm confident marines will be stuck rebuilding their 3 res nodes over and over.

Don't see where you get the part about shading and conceding from? Shade means the ability to set up ambushes on the fly or, using aura, the ability to safely navigate the map and always attack from the optimal direction at the optimal moment. Both are very strong and both will precisely help create the situation of the Marines 'rebuilding over and over'. With Phantom, res nodes are never safe for the Marines unless they spend res scanning over and over.

As for fade upgrades, it's more a question of lifeform ratio and decision making. Good fades don't need the upgrade as much as skulks need leap or gorges needing bile or pretty much anything else.

While what you say is true, "decision-making" on many commanders' part boils down to stuff like mass whip rushes (worth hundreds of res) before fade upgrades. That's the wrong priority.

I don't mind trying interesting strats, but some marine commanders have literally went double robotics at the start of the game...was it trying something new? Sure...was it a good idea?

Commanders are regularly making so many mistakes. For instance, not many khammanders even use the Drifters to support during combat or any of the abilities on crag/shift/shade. Why not spice things up a bit, then, and do something other than always use the exact same build order every game if they aren't playing at a very high level anyway?
100% Recycled Awesome Jan 16, 2014 @ 9:10pm 
Originally posted by Apheirox:
Don't see where you get the part about shading and conceding from? Shade means the ability to set up ambushes on the fly or, using aura, the ability to safely navigate the map and always attack from the optimal direction at the optimal moment. Both are very strong and both will precisely help create the situation of the Marines 'rebuilding over and over'. With Phantom, res nodes are never safe for the Marines unless they spend res scanning over and over.

Because shade leaves you vulnerable to marines who know what they are doing. Phantom only really works on marine teams that aren't competent. Moving with phantom produces a shimmer that a good marine will see. It's better to be able to close the distance and dodge rather than hope that they won't see you. Furthermore, Phantom does encourage defensive play which is the absolute last thing aliens should be doing early on. Finally, on big maps, the alien's advantage in speed is severely reduced. Half of being able to kill marines as a skulk is moving fast.

While what you say is true, "decision-making" on many commanders' part boils down to stuff like mass whip rushes (worth hundreds of res) before fade upgrades. That's the wrong priority.

10 Whips is just 100 res. And that's only useful once you're ready to contaminate. By that point, I've long gotten fade upgrades if there are a decent number of fades who are decent at playing fade. I commed a medicore Alien team with crappy fades. They couldn't push into Reception on Biodome themselves so I just had to contaminate and kill the power with echoed whips. Sometimes it's better to just do it yourself.

Commanders are regularly making so many mistakes. For instance, not many khammanders even use the Drifters to support during combat

Part of that is not wanting to lose the drifter early on. Losing a drifter within the first minute is pretty damaging if you don't have a gorge doing the building.

or any of the abilities on crag/shift/shade.

I do love using heal wave in the middle of a fight. So unfair. Echo is severly underused. Once I hit the 5 minute point and have a decent number of RTs, I just echo everything in. Build them in a safe place with a crag and drifter and just echo it across the map. That is a downside of getting shift early. No use of heal wave.
Last edited by 100% Recycled Awesome; Jan 16, 2014 @ 9:11pm
Apocalypse Jan 16, 2014 @ 11:04pm 
Originally posted by ChrisPlaysLinux:
i CANT STAND commanders that dont do shift first! shade is the worst to go first. Gorges NEED adreline so does fade if you can go fade early. And i simply cant kill for ♥♥♥♥ without speed as a skulk.

That is than a problem on your side, not a problem with shade hives ;-)
Phantom is so strong and so is aura for lerks and fades. The real strengh of going shift first is imo echo, not the traits that you get, because shade would give you stronger traits for the early game.
Last edited by Apocalypse; Jan 16, 2014 @ 11:05pm
Hobocop Jan 16, 2014 @ 11:12pm 
Phantom is plenty strong, but not because of the cloak. Silence is the real bonus, and players who know how to exploit it are the most annoying things to deal with early game as a marine. Should the changes to hallucinations on current BT in order to make them not be complete pains in the ♥♥♥ to use, shade first could be a real contender.

As is, shade first is not taken because:

1. Enzyme and Mucuous Membrane are far more useful than Hallucination
2. Healing Wave and Echo are far more useful than Ink

The support abilities provided by shade hive are just too situational compared to the more generally useful utility of the other two choices. The lifeform upgrades are amazing, but drifter/structure support are not.
Last edited by Hobocop; Jan 16, 2014 @ 11:18pm
Kwisatz Jan 16, 2014 @ 11:13pm 
Originally posted by 100% Recycled Awesome:
Originally posted by Apheirox:
Don't see where you get the part about shading and conceding from? Shade means the ability to set up ambushes on the fly or, using aura, the ability to safely navigate the map and always attack from the optimal direction at the optimal moment. Both are very strong and both will precisely help create the situation of the Marines 'rebuilding over and over'. With Phantom, res nodes are never safe for the Marines unless they spend res scanning over and over.

Because shade leaves you vulnerable to marines who know what they are doing. Phantom only really works on marine teams that aren't competent. Moving with phantom produces a shimmer that a good marine will see. It's better to be able to close the distance and dodge rather than hope that they won't see you. Furthermore, Phantom does encourage defensive play which is the absolute last thing aliens should be doing early on. Finally, on big maps, the alien's advantage in speed is severely reduced. Half of being able to kill marines as a skulk is moving fast.

The big advantage of phantom is not camouflage but silence. Back when the Shade upgrades where still separated into camouflage and silence, I always went for silence when playing Skulk, Lerk or Fade. When you know what you are doing, silence grants you a free bite/swipe. You won't need the additional speed of celerity since you close in n your target at full base speed, without him/her even noticing.
[#OMEGA] - K2 Jan 17, 2014 @ 2:32am 
Crag is at least equally viable with a decent team as it gives a strong bonus to skulks (both upgrades are good) and lerks (regen). Though people have to have some skill to utilize it, so you don't see it with the rookies. But you still need to get a shift hive rather quickly -- i.e around the time fades are up.

Shade is terrible at first/second hive and unless you get 3 hives up, you'll be at an disadvantage. And with decent opposition it's not guaranteed you'll get that 3rd hive

Problem in the current build is that shift has the best drifter ability, updates that are really mandatory for all later lifeforms later because of the ridicolous energy fade/gorge (and partially lerk) burns, and the slow onos speed; and it also enables to echo which can be very useful for the alien com.
Skulks can do without cele, but it's helpful, especially for the newbies that don't ever walljump.
Camulos#linux Jan 17, 2014 @ 7:28am 
I disagree, you need shift to get to your or the enemies RTs quickly, or even the base to force a beacon or whatnot.
hamburger Jan 17, 2014 @ 9:28am 
Strongly disagree with the OP on going shade hive first. Sure, there are advantages to going shade hive in just the right circumstances, but this is, IMO, pretty much only for inexperienced skulks going against inexperienced marines. Aliens can already move silently by holding down the shift key, and once the marines have spotted you, shade abilities no longer benefit you in taking them out, while shift and crag abilities are extremely useful for all classes here. Besides, I find that it's far easier to both navigate the map and take out groups of marines with celerity than with phantom. Fades need adrenaline. Lerks need celerity (especially to spore). 3-shell carapace is the equivalent of armor level 3, which is a HUGE advantage. Echo is invaluable in the hands of a competent commander. I won't even go further into it; I think you're just wrong. Going shade hive first will basically handicap your team and there isn't a semi-competitive player out there who won't support an ejection if the comm consistently makes choices like that.

Again, this is coming from someone who would probably be considered a "pubstomper" - I can usually wipe out every player on the marine team as a skulk with just celerity by doing laps around the map, which is how I think skulks should be used... Stealth? Even skilled players won't notice you in time if you come running at them from behind.
Last edited by hamburger; Jan 17, 2014 @ 9:43am
Camulos#linux Jan 17, 2014 @ 10:21am 
agree completely speed is a must for skulks, if you are hurt just go to the hive or a healing station. Armor will do very little when there are multiple rines killing you within a second.
Postius Jan 17, 2014 @ 11:58am 
Shift is the best for pubs. Its simple. It gives you defence:more speed more mobility, better dodging. It gives you better attack: More speed. It gives you more map control: More mobility.
Zorro Jan 17, 2014 @ 3:07pm 
well to op shift have been change to that emz. (bite attack go faster) from no hive driters to only shift hive.( together with storm- faster movement speed). Even though that most people do not use driters for combat, This is why I pick that
MrMuffinz Jan 17, 2014 @ 3:50pm 
The thing is, I would rather move faster and avoid most of the bullets completely than take just a few more bullets.

20 armor isn't that much honestly.

Skulks are really slow if you don't know how to get a good bhop going, so Shift is best bet.

If I had to pick another Hive to start with though, it would be a Shade.

I am really good with Phantom 3 as I can hide and it's really easy to jsut run up and start biting someone when they dont hear you.

I foudn that attacking marines while having Phantom 3 makes them react much slower so it's a great way to play.
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Date Posted: Jan 16, 2014 @ 4:04am
Posts: 27