3yebex @ Twitch.tv/3ybx Dec 25, 2013 @ 12:06am
Enjoy the game, but things are killing the game for me...
I play this game quite a bit, it's an incredbly unique experience as Aliens and the gameplay reminds me of Savage 2: A Tortured Soul[savage2.com]. The thing is though, I play primarly Alien. Playing as Marines seems just as standard as any other FPS gameplay. Shoot targets, avoid taking damage.

Anyways, for my rant:

- The game is incredibly imbalanced, in a sense that, skulks are not meant to 1v1 a marine. If a skulk kills a marine, it's more of the marine's fault for either failing to aim, position properly, or lack of awareness. Skulks are never meant to directly engage in combat with any marines 1v1, or in groups, they have to ambush.

I feel this is a terrible balancing mechanic, and a good skulk should have just an equal advantage 1v1ing a good marine early and mid-game. Skulks also at no point get increased damage to help keep up with the marines. Resulting in several 75 bites by end-game.

- For a melee vs ranged game, marines(ranged) are incredibly agile at close-range. Marines can strafe (Pressing A and D repeatedly) without losing any momentum. Not only that, but they jump through the air like they're feather weights. I don't know how many times I've came in, landed two bites, only to have the marine jump and quickly dissapear off my screen. Turns out they jumped OVER my skulk and behind me.

I don't understand why the marines, who specialize in range (and become more lethal as the game goes on) are just as agile as Skulks in terms of movement. This becomes incredibly irritating when trying to bite a marine and they simply just keep strafe jumping back and forth. Sure, you landed 2 bites when you snuck up but good luck landing 2 more while he's flying through the air like a feather.

- Medkit spam, and Nano Armor. There is absolutely no way to defend these not being incredibly broken. Medkits can be dropped in unpowered rooms, spammed, cost 1 res, can not be bile-bombed, and can not be prevented. Unlike the alien equivilant, you must slect a Drifter and use it's god awful clunky system/movement to regen armor, spam, cost 2 res.

Here's the catcher though, you can kill the drifter healing the Skulk. Not only that, but you need a Crag Hive in order to use the alien equivilant. You could say gorges, but again just like Drifter you can kill it or chase it off.

- Gorge tunnels are incredibly hard to notice as Aliens. There is so much clutter in the base for Aliens, things have tentacles, gaping holes, spouting gases. Gorge tunnels do not stick out for Aliens, as they really match the rest of the scenary. Add in a Shade and now the gorge tunnel is blended in with everything.

Gorge tunnels need to have a glowing aura around them for Aliens, making them easier to notice for their team. Marines don't have to worry about missing their phase-gate because it's a giant door that is neon blue. How can you miss that?

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All in all, I'm just utterly frustrated at how much soloability the marines have from the beginning to the end of a game. Aliens must play incredly well together in order to stand a chance against decent marines, and even then may still lose because of the overwhelming siege ability of marines and their ARCs. The entire game it feels as though it's about:

Aliens: Prevent the marines from getting as much res as possible.
Marines: Get as much res as possible.
Showing 1-9 of 9 comments
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SanCo Dec 25, 2013 @ 1:02am 
Not to be rude, but you need to play some more then. Because what you say ONLY applies to games filled with rookies. In short as Im typing on phone, if both teams has st least average understanding of the game its the aliens that needs to be defensive and prevent harvester loss at any cost. If the marines do not kill harvesters early they will lose. Only in rookie pubs does camping to exo works because rookie aliens tend to lose their lifeforms which is key. Aliens is not balanced around playing skulk all game, lose your lifeform, lose the game.

Tldr; play on vet servers. This is a team game, aliens win with proper ambush position as marine have to push there is plenty if that, marines win if they have proper positioning on engagement. Do not pretend you can solo as a rookie skulk.
Last edited by SanCo; Dec 25, 2013 @ 1:16am
Kwisatz Dec 25, 2013 @ 1:42am 
Originally posted by 3yebex:
I play this game quite a bit, it's an incredbly unique experience as Aliens and the gameplay reminds me of Savage 2: A Tortured Soul[savage2.com]. The thing is though, I play primarly Alien. Playing as Marines seems just as standard as any other FPS gameplay. Shoot targets, avoid taking damage.

Anyways, for my rant:

- The game is incredibly imbalanced, in a sense that, skulks are not meant to 1v1 a marine. If a skulk kills a marine, it's more of the marine's fault for either failing to aim, position properly, or lack of awareness. Skulks are never meant to directly engage in combat with any marines 1v1, or in groups, they have to ambush.

I feel this is a terrible balancing mechanic, and a good skulk should have just an equal advantage 1v1ing a good marine early and mid-game. Skulks also at no point get increased damage to help keep up with the marines. Resulting in several 75 bites by end-game.

I disagree with your reasoning. You say the game is imbalanced because Skulks don't stand a chance in a 1v1. One sentence later you extend on this, saying: Skulks are never meant to directly engage in combat with any marines 1v1, or in groups, they have to ambush.
That is correct and makes it very much possible for a good Skulk to kill a good marine. Just be stealthy and ambush (there's enough places throughout the maps to hide in) or swarm them. Keep in mind that Skulks are meant to go out in groups, hunting for extractors or marines, while marines are more prone to move out in smaller groups and have to build all that crap too.
As to your point of no damage increase: what's wrong with assymetrical gameplay? Skulks are still very viable combat and anti-res options late game, with leap being researched. You could just as well argue that marines don't get a speed upgrade or nano-suits that make them invislible :)

- For a melee vs ranged game, marines(ranged) are incredibly agile at close-range. Marines can strafe (Pressing A and D repeatedly) without losing any momentum. Not only that, but they jump through the air like they're feather weights. I don't know how many times I've came in, landed two bites, only to have the marine jump and quickly dissapear off my screen. Turns out they jumped OVER my skulk and behind me.

I don't understand why the marines, who specialize in range (and become more lethal as the game goes on) are just as agile as Skulks in terms of movement. This becomes incredibly irritating when trying to bite a marine and they simply just keep strafe jumping back and forth. Sure, you landed 2 bites when you snuck up but good luck landing 2 more while he's flying through the air like a feather.

I'm not going to disagree with you here. I have come to terms with the very agile marines in close quarters, but I can see that a lot of people hate it. Imo the penalty of loosing momentum after hitting the ground as a jumping marine should be increased. Also, as a not-wall-running Skulk it is pretty hard to catch up with a sprinting marine...


- Medkit spam, and Nano Armor. There is absolutely no way to defend these not being incredibly broken. Medkits can be dropped in unpowered rooms, spammed, cost 1 res, can not be bile-bombed, and can not be prevented. Unlike the alien equivilant, you must slect a Drifter and use it's god awful clunky system/movement to regen armor, spam, cost 2 res.

Here's the catcher though, you can kill the drifter healing the Skulk. Not only that, but you need a Crag Hive in order to use the alien equivilant. You could say gorges, but again just like Drifter you can kill it or chase it off.

I don't think there is anything wrong with medkits since they introduced the pick up delay a few builds ago. I can see the points you are making but I just can't see how that makes it imbalanced. Too often I've been in a position where I got medkitted or attacked a medkitted marine and the marine died in the encounter. The comm just wasted 3 or 4 res for absolutely nothing.
Nano Shield has must be researched (15tres) and costs 5 res per use. I wouldonly very sparsly use it on marines, but it can buy you a few extra seconds for keeping that obs/pg/power node up.
Mucous Membrane costs 2 res because it AoE.

- Gorge tunnels are incredibly hard to notice as Aliens. There is so much clutter in the base for Aliens, things have tentacles, gaping holes, spouting gases. Gorge tunnels do not stick out for Aliens, as they really match the rest of the scenary. Add in a Shade and now the gorge tunnel is blended in with everything.

Gorge tunnels need to have a glowing aura around them for Aliens, making them easier to notice for their team. Marines don't have to worry about missing their phase-gate because it's a giant door that is neon blue. How can you miss that?

Use your map to see where the entrance is.

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All in all, I'm just utterly frustrated at how much soloability the marines have from the beginning to the end of a game. Aliens must play incredly well together in order to stand a chance against decent marines, and even then may still lose because of the overwhelming siege ability of marines and their ARCs. The entire game it feels as though it's about:

Aliens: Prevent the marines from getting as much res as possible.
Marines: Get as much res as possible.

What's wrong about your synopsis? Why does it frustrate you? These are sincere questions.

If you ask me (and NS2stats for that matter) it is the marines that have a harder time with decent aliens. Mainly that is related to most pubs not knowing that aggression is key as a marine. Concerning siege abilities: bile bomb.

You probably noticed I had a difficult time establihing my arguments and rebutting your points. Mostly because I find most of the reasons you give are true. Maybe it comes down to a matter of taste, the things you mentioned being broke are just part of what I think makes this game so special.
Overall I get the impression that you are complaining about this game being asymmetric and demanding different playstyles. Something that I find to be the most enjoyable trait of the game.
Last edited by Kwisatz; Dec 25, 2013 @ 1:43am
Hobocop Dec 25, 2013 @ 2:00am 
1. Aliens are not balanced around running around as a skulk all game. They get different lifeforms for a reason, just as marines get different weapons for similar reasons.

Additionally, skulks gain access to Leap, Carapace, Celerity, and Xenocide to help them keep up with marines as they gain more armor.

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2. If marines weren't allowed to have in-combat mobility, they would literally get murdered nonstop by experienced skulks unless their aim were 100% perfect at all times.

It makes the combat take a little more than a binary melee range = autolose for marines, which keeps it interesting beyond skulks sitting around in dark corners all day and instantly winning all engagements randomly based on whether or not the marines happened to check that particular corner.

Besides, learning how to walljump to keep up speed while in combat is an incredibly fun skill to develop as a skulk.

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3. Medkits and Nanoshield are an investment to tip the balance of fights in the marine's favor. In many cases, despite med spam, marines will often die anyway, which means that they just wasted resources for nothing.

Mucous Membrane effects ALL aliens and structures in range, and it stacks with all other sources of healing, which is why it costs more to deploy and has a risk associated with it through a relatively vulnerable support unit and requiring Crag Hive.

The other drifter abilities are also very good at turning fights around if used correctly (Hallucinations may be seeing a buff in the near future).

And, if marines are shooting at a drifter being microed around, they're not shooting the aliens that are killing them.

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4. Like what was said, the map displays gorge tunnel entrances, so you can use it to orient yourself.

Using the map constantly to check the current situation on the map is a vital skill to develop anyway.

You could also put infestataion to Minimal if you're using Rich to make it easier as well.

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5. Aliens have access to amazing siege capabilites as well because of their superior map mobility, bile bomb, and enzyme cloud.

It's not as straightforward as escorting ARCs to their destination, since it often requires good communication on current marine troop positions and concentrations and some timing, but no less devastating when done correctly.
Last edited by Hobocop; Dec 25, 2013 @ 2:04am
NoTimE Dec 25, 2013 @ 9:18am 
Lol. Wait, you're serious?

Right at the moment, aliens are stronger than marines, a LOT stronger. Just look at the stats: aliens: 59.05% win-chance, rines: 40.95% win-chance (taken from ns2stats.com)

These stats ARE gamebreaking. It's not a little difference like 0.5%, aliens win significent more often than marines. Before the DEVs work on aliens, there is a much bigger need to fix these problems.
Last edited by NoTimE; Dec 25, 2013 @ 9:24am
3yebex @ Twitch.tv/3ybx Dec 25, 2013 @ 6:39pm 
Originally posted by SanCo:
Tldr; play on vet servers. This is a team game, aliens win with proper ambush position as marine have to push there is plenty if that, marines win if they have proper positioning on engagement.
Do not look at someone's profile and assume just because they have low hours that they haven't seen enough of the game. I've played on many different vet servers, and what I see is Aliens struggling even with proper team work and ambushing.


Originally posted by Kwisatz:
I disagree with your reasoning. You say the game is imbalanced because Skulks don't stand a chance in a 1v1. One sentence later you extend on this, saying: Skulks are never meant to directly engage in combat with any marines 1v1, or in groups, they have to ambush.
That is correct and makes it very much possible for a good Skulk to kill a good marine. Just be stealthy and ambush (there's enough places throughout the maps to hide in) or swarm them. Keep in mind that Skulks are meant to go out in groups, hunting for extractors or marines, while marines are more prone to move out in smaller groups and have to build all that crap too.
This is what I mean though. The game is imbalanced, in a sense that 1v1 marines win. A balanced game is a game where both parties in a 1v1 have a 100% equal chance of winning based on how well you play. This isn't the case with NS2. The game is imbalanced, so you have to go out of your way to introduce varying factors to walk around the imbalance. It's applying a bandaid to a deep wound..

Originally posted by Kwisatz:
You could just as well argue that marines don't get a speed upgrade or nano-suits that make them invislible :)
Aliens don't get rifles, or ability to 1-shot marines either. Shut up, this was a terrible argument.

Originally posted by Kwisatz:
I'm not going to disagree with you here. I have come to terms with the very agile marines in close quarters, but I can see that a lot of people hate it. Imo the penalty of loosing momentum after hitting the ground as a jumping marine should be increased. Also, as a not-wall-running Skulk it is pretty hard to catch up with a sprinting marine...
The issue is that a ground skulk is incredibly slow in combat, and the fact that the marine doesn't lose momentum when switching directions makes for easy jukes. I can wall-jump just fine, so catching up to marines and engaging isn't an issue. It's when I'm in combat that landing bites from toe-height against a marine that jumps higher than 3 of my body mass that becomes an issue.

Originally posted by Kwisatz:
I don't think there is anything wrong with medkits since they introduced the pick up delay a few builds ago. I can see the points you are making but I just can't see how that makes it imbalanced. Too often I've been in a position where I got medkitted or attacked a medkitted marine and the marine died in the encounter. The comm just wasted 3 or 4 res for absolutely nothing.
Nano Shield has must be researched (15tres) and costs 5 res per use. I wouldonly very sparsly use it on marines, but it can buy you a few extra seconds for keeping that obs/pg/power node up.
Mucous Membrane costs 2 res because it AoE.
Mucous Membrane requires research (Crag Hive), 2 Res, Drifter, LoS range, and has a delay before it casts. Medkits can be used in unexplored rooms, 1 res, require no research, no third-party unit, or LoS range of third-party unit. It also has no delay.

Originally posted by Kwisatz:
Use your map to see where the entrance is.
Or just give a simple fix to an actual issue? I can look on my map just fine, finding it in the clutter of whips/shifts/crags/eggs in a base, along with Shades removing coloring, is a pain in the ♥♥♥ and it would save me 3-5s if it had a unique soft glow that made it stick out from the other buildings with Hive vision. Again, marines don't have to worry about a huge amount of clutter in their base, nor does their giant neon gate blend in with their buildings.

Originally posted by Hobocop:
1. Aliens are not balanced around running around as a skulk all game. They get different lifeforms for a reason, just as marines get different weapons for similar reasons.
So you just admitted to the game not being balanced since you can't stay on Skulk lifeform and win. Marines however, can stay on LMG no Jetpack/Mines/Welder to win. Aliens get Lerk/Fade to counter marine LMG, marines get shotgun to counter Lerk/Fade. Aliens get Onos to counter shotgun, marines get jetpacks to counter Onos. Wait... now that's all the Aliens have left. Where's the counter for jetpacks? Xenocide? Please, any Jetpacker with a team will kill skulks in the air before they can reach them.


Originally posted by Hobocop:
Besides, learning how to walljump to keep up speed while in combat is an incredibly fun skill to develop as a skulk.
It was not a fun skill to learn. It was ridiculously easy and I got it down in less than 10 hours of gameplay. Wall jumping doesn't help in actual combat, and only serves to be useful to initiate the engagement. If you try to wall jump in combat, it requires you to from from the marine to get to a wall that he micro-managed himself away from, allowing him to easily shoot you as you move (slowly) in a straight line and try and jump at a wall to try and jump off of.

Originally posted by NoTimE:
Lol. Wait, you're serious?

Right at the moment, aliens are stronger than marines, a LOT stronger. Just look at the stats: aliens: 59.05% win-chance, rines: 40.95% win-chance (taken from ns2stats.com)

These stats ARE gamebreaking. It's not a little difference like 0.5%, aliens win significent more often than marines. Before the DEVs work on aliens, there is a much bigger need to fix these problems.
Lol wait, are YOU serious? You're looking at stats for overall the community. This means it's coming from incompetent players and those stupid 24 slot servers. Let's not forget, a single decent person in just one of these games can carry and win the game even though it's not related to balance. Like I said to the one quote above me. Shut up, this was a terrible argument.

Either way. I love the game, and will continue to play it and stream it for many hundreds of hours more. Unfortunately though, between medkit spam and marine agility I'll never touch this game competitively because it's an obvious Alien slaughter unless you work as a team, and even then with good shooting, that seems weak...
Last edited by 3yebex @ Twitch.tv/3ybx; Dec 25, 2013 @ 6:48pm
100% Recycled Awesome Dec 25, 2013 @ 6:45pm 
Originally posted by NoTimE:
Right at the moment, aliens are stronger than marines, a LOT stronger. Just look at the stats: aliens: 59.05% win-chance, rines: 40.95% win-chance (taken from ns2stats.com)

Part of this is from the Eclipse map release which is wildly unbalanced.

If you look at numbers from UWE pre-eclipse it's about a 6%~8% differential. Build 241 was a 4% differential.
Last edited by 100% Recycled Awesome; Dec 25, 2013 @ 6:46pm
Hobocop Dec 25, 2013 @ 8:42pm 
Aliens don't get rifles, or ability to 1-shot marines either. Shut up, this was a terrible argument.

They do get Lerk spikes which are extremely potent if used correctly. Onos Gore and Fade Stab can also one-shot marines who have no armor. None of the advanced lifeforms for aliens can be one-shotted from full health.

Originally posted by 3yebex #Twitch.TV/ball3hi:
So you just admitted to the game not being balanced since you can't stay on Skulk lifeform and win. Marines however, can stay on LMG no Jetpack/Mines/Welder to win. Aliens get Lerk/Fade to counter marine LMG, marines get shotgun to counter Lerk/Fade. Aliens get Onos to counter shotgun, marines get jetpacks to counter Onos. Wait... now that's all the Aliens have left. Where's the counter for jetpacks? Xenocide? Please, any Jetpacker with a team will kill skulks in the air before they can reach them.

I never said it wasn't possible to win games with just skulks, because it is. Just don't expect to be able to trade blow-for-blow against marines with advanced equipment without equally diverse lifeform compositions. There's also no way marines are going to be able to win against intelligent aliens if they don't have mines to allow them to push aggressively. That's just asking for backdoor base rushes.

As for JPs; Lerk spikes, Leaping skulks, actual Xenocide timing so that you explode before they can kill you, and competent Fades with Adrenaline can all handle JPs if the players are good enough.

It was not a fun skill to learn. It was ridiculously easy and I got it down in less than 10 hours of gameplay. Wall jumping doesn't help in actual combat, and only serves to be useful to initiate the engagement. If you try to wall jump in combat, it requires you to from from the marine to get to a wall that he micro-managed himself away from, allowing him to easily shoot you as you move (slowly) in a straight line and try and jump at a wall to try and jump off of.

Yeah, I'm not so sure you've got it down as well as you say you do if you believe that it isn't a worthwhile skill in combat. Drive-by skulk bites as you speed past marines with walljumps out of the area are extremely useful for drawing fire for your team.
Last edited by Hobocop; Dec 25, 2013 @ 8:57pm
3yebex @ Twitch.tv/3ybx Dec 25, 2013 @ 9:06pm 
Originally posted by Hobocop:
They do get Lerk spikes which are extremely potent if used correctly. Onos Gore and Fade Stab can also one-shot marines who have no armor. None of the advanced lifeforms for aliens can be one-shotted from full health.
>No Armor.
Marines have armor at all times. If they lost their armor (previous engagement) then it's not a 1 shot. Marine LMG is the basic unit, and can't be one-shot. Skulks are the basic unit, and can be one-shot. Also, Lerks can be one shot.

Originally posted by Hobocop:
As for JPs; Lerk spikes, Leaping skulks, actual Xenocide timing so that you explode before they can kill you, and competent Fades with Adrenaline can all handle JPs if the players are good enough.
Lerk spikes do garbage damage, and if they're a whole team of Jetpacks (Usually the case, jetpack rush) that Lerk will be chased and killed. Fades will be shotgun or focused, and Skulks will have a terrible time getting to them without being killed easily by W2/W3. Jetpack doesn't have a hard-counter, like everything else in this game has.

Originally posted by Hobocop:
Yeah, you haven't got it down if you honestly believe that it isn't a worthwhile skill in combat. Drive-by skulk bites as you speed past marines with walljumps out of the area are extremely useful for drawing fire for your team.
No, I do have it down. I drive-by a lot, and land bites many times as drive-by and still keep my wall-jump up. Hell, I even do drive-by parasites down a hall-way and still keep my wall-jump up. The skill is useless in combat against a marine once you've closed the gap, period. End of discussion. The only time it's useful in actual combat, is when the marine fails to micromanage his position and gets near walls.
Kwisatz Dec 26, 2013 @ 2:26am 
Shut up, this was a terrible argument!

Nothing left to see here guys, move along.
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Date Posted: Dec 25, 2013 @ 12:06am
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