na 12 de Feb a las 21:03
Echo harvesters vs drifters/gorges
I've seen several people choose the strategy of echoing harvesters rather than placing them and building them. Does anyone have an opinion on this strategy worth discussing?

I've tried this several times myself, I often feel like I waste some time and resources doing this.
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oldman 12 de Feb a las 21:12 
doing this can deny the other team to set up a harvester, since it will be at full health when you echo it.

also by doing the echo strategy, you can gurentee that you get resources back right away and, that the harvester is at full health. It is basically a safe way of building harvesters as fast and safety as possible(from base) and than teleporting it away,
na 12 de Feb a las 21:42 
Publicado originalmente por oldman:
doing this can deny the other team to set up a harvester, since it will be at full health when you echo it.

Why? They can still kill a full health harvester, even if it is fully matured it can still die.

Publicado originalmente por oldman:
also by doing the echo strategy, you can gurentee that you get resources back right away and, that the harvester is at full health. It is basically a safe way of building harvesters as fast and safety as possible(from base) and than teleporting it away,

Lets assume you didn't do any sort of scouting (that you might have naturally been doing with a drifter) and you teleport the harvester to a place where there are a couple of marines. They kill the harveter pretty swiftly, did you regain the resources? No, in fact you not only wasted time, and resources of the harvester, but also the resources of the echo.
In my opinion, you end up with a slower build time over all with this echo strategy, and you end up spending more money. Echoing costs money, and the time you spent without that harvester in place sooner is money lost.

The echo strategy doesn't guarantee anything, not safety, not recouping cost. And I am certain that it isn't faster than placing two harvesters each with their own drifter. The crucial flaw in your arguement is that you are forgetting that there is a time to echo, a cost to echo, and a time to build. Building two harvesters at once is faster than building one. And your arguement about safety doesn't make any sense. If it was dangerous, it was going to be dangerous either way. The difference between that danger relates to map awareness. Drifters can do some quick scouting if you want to be really sure and then you gain map awareness (very valuable stuff).

oldman 12 de Feb a las 21:53 
mmm, well these are my opinion which i should probably have mentioned, if you want a good explaination your best bet is to simply ask the commanders who used this strategy or have heard about it.

Sure, you can use 2 drifters on 2 harvesters if you want, or you can use 2 drifters in 1 harvester at your base,I like knowing that if i were to shift my harvester into a location (not a random area but a place most likely to be attacked soon) that it will have full health and start gathering resources. Sure it can get killed, by while they are shooting at the full health harvester, they are wasting ammo, and hopefulling will bring in your teammates for the kill.
Sylwester 13 de Feb a las 0:15 
I use echo a lot.

The title is kinda wrong, because you should always use drifters and gorges (if there are any).

There is almost no difference between using and not using echo in terms of resources gathered, but there are a few advantages when using echo.

The main advantage of using echo is that the harvester sent to target location is already built (and maybe fully matured) which makes it harder to kill (marines waste more time which gives aliens more time to save it) and also it doesn't mean that you should echo it to unscouted location. If you build on the field there is always a risk that even a single marine will interrupt the building process and you may also lose a drifter.

Another advantage is that you can use the same drifter for building harvester and other stuff in base. A single gorge can build a few harvesters in row that you will echo 1 by 1 and it will be much faster compared to a gorge running around the map and building them (assuming that spreading infestation won't be the slowing factor).

I always start the game with 2-3 drifters scouting and building harvesters on the field (trying to echo harvesters at this time would be a waste of resources).

Whether or not to use echo depends on situation, but it's probably the most powerful commander ability. If used properly, it can sometimes turn the game around.
ShadowSoulAssassin 13 de Feb a las 4:19 
Not a very experienced comm, but I'd say it's just about having a mature rt in a rather dangerous location. Of course that doesn't mean the rt right in front of the enemy's base, but some players like to target the rts in between bases. Mezz on tram for example, or Ore. Most of the time they are alone and try to take out your rt - having a fully matured rt there gives you about 5 to 4 more seconds before it dies. 45 more seconds if he killed the cysts and stops attacking (maybe because he's dead :D ). And to be honest, I've seen nearly hundreds of rts going down because the Comm didn't cyst in time. What a shame. ^^'
Anyway, these 5 seconds can be rather valuable to skulks rushing to the rt. Or the added health gives the comm more time to respond.

Not to mention that you fully avoid these moments where a lonely marine kills off a fresh and unbuilt rt. Had that happen to me a few times, it's always a joy to kill off these rts. :D

Of course, this isn't really necessary. I'd say use it if you think you can afford the res to echo it to these locations and that the enemy has some players intelligent enough to target rts of yours. Only a small percentage of the players (at least on my servers ^^') actually goes after rts outside of bases, so in "normal" pub games I'd say it isn't necessary.
Última edición por ShadowSoulAssassin; 13 de Feb a las 7:06
100% Recycled Awesome 13 de Feb a las 9:57 
Vastly superior strategy. Growing a harvester next to a crag and with a drifter in a main base cuts down on risk, speeds up growth and let's your gorges heal at the front lines and build defenses. At a certain point I only echo harvesters in. And because you have a shift you can then start to echo in other structures near the front lines. Echo is the most underated alien com ability.
100% Recycled Awesome 13 de Feb a las 10:01 
Echo does save money. A fully built harvester immediately starts generating resour e. One team resource and doesn't risk a drifter. Plus crag and drifter together is very fast. You should make the difference up in ten seconds and the rest is pure profit. Safer, faster and more money.
Sylwester 13 de Feb a las 11:03 
Publicado originalmente por 100% Recycled Awesome:
Echo does save money. A fully built harvester immediately starts generating resour e.
Echo does not save money. When you use it, it only changes the location where you will grow new harvester. Total resources gathered will be actually a little lower because to time required to grow harvester you also need to add time required to echo.
100% Recycled Awesome 13 de Feb a las 11:23 
Publicado originalmente por Sylwester:
Publicado originalmente por 100% Recycled Awesome:
Echo does save money. A fully built harvester immediately starts generating resour e.
Echo does not save money. When you use it, it only changes the location where you will grow new harvester. Total resources gathered will be actually a little lower because to time required to grow harvester you also need to add time required to echo.

Incorrect. Reduction in time from growing next a crag and drifter without any risk to all three and echoing in generates funds faster than growing on site. The speed boost alone makes up easily for the 1 res cost. Not echoing risks a drifter and has slower growth taking longer for res to start generating. Echoing takes 2 seconds. Not a big factor.
ShadowSoulAssassin 13 de Feb a las 11:33 
"When wounded Kharaa lifeforms are in its presence, the Crag exhales a cloud of bacteria around itself, healing nearby lifeforms and structures alike; the cloud's healing properties can be compared to the Gorge's Heal Spray, albeit with less potency and cannot help Kharaa structures grow. "
"Placing a Crag near a new Hive will heal it to full health and armor, even though it is not considered a grown Hive for Biomass calculations. " -From the NS2 community wiki

Edit: Nevermind, hives are kinda special I guess... If they really do help build structures (but don't affect maturing) I guess it does help to build something faster.

Btw, afaik it takes 2 res to echo harvesters and the delay is 5 seconds.
Última edición por ShadowSoulAssassin; 13 de Feb a las 11:36
Sylwester 13 de Feb a las 12:11 
Publicado originalmente por 100% Recycled Awesome:
Incorrect. Reduction in time from growing next a crag and drifter without any risk to all three and echoing in generates funds faster than growing on site.
Crag does not make your harvesters build faster and I'm not talking about risks. I'm ONLY denying anyone saying "with echo you get more resources because you get fully grown harvester" nonsense... With echo you need to build harvester in base 17 seconds faster just to break even.
100% Recycled Awesome 13 de Feb a las 12:14 
Crag drifter combo really helps reduce the build time. There's no question the build time is less with a crag. Generally, I just echo from one area late game. Helps with whip farms too.

There's also the whole thing of letting your gorges bile over building middle to late game.
ShadowSoulAssassin 13 de Feb a las 12:15 
Publicado originalmente por Sylwester:
Crag does not make your harvesters build faster and I'm not talking about risks. I'm ONLY denying anyone saying "with echo you get more resources because you get fully grown harvester" nonsense... With echo you need to build harvester in base 17 seconds faster just to break even.
Thought the same, but during the 5 second time the harvester will still produce res, correct? Therefore it would be 12 seconds. But to be honest, for about 1 res profit at most...The comm should focus on other things before he spends all his time echoing harvesters around.
100% Recycled Awesome 13 de Feb a las 12:20 
Publicado originalmente por Sylwester:
Crag does not make your harvesters build faster and I'm not talking about risks. I'm ONLY denying anyone saying "with echo you get more resources because you get fully grown harvester" nonsense... With echo you need to build harvester in base 17 seconds faster just to break even.

Going to have to disagree with you there. I've noticed a significant time reduction. With a crag present. Crags make everything build faster. Try build a whip farm without one. And you have to factor risks in. Part of the whole reason to echo is to reduce risks to a new harvester and a drifter.

You're forgetting that you need more than one drifter if you don't echo. One drifter by a shift reduces total cost per drifter. With the time reduction of crag and drifter and needing fewer drifters costs get reduced.


Sylwester 13 de Feb a las 12:43 
I just tested it on listen server. Having crag near growing harvester / whips makes no difference.

It's true that you can reduce amount of drifters, but that also reduces your ability to scout and support your team on the frontlines.

Publicado originalmente por ShadowSoulAssassin:
Publicado originalmente por Sylwester:
Crag does not make your harvesters build faster and I'm not talking about risks. I'm ONLY denying anyone saying "with echo you get more resources because you get fully grown harvester" nonsense... With echo you need to build harvester in base 17 seconds faster just to break even.
Thought the same, but during the 5 second time the harvester will still produce res, correct? Therefore it would be 12 seconds. But to be honest, for about 1 res profit at most...The comm should focus on other things before he spends all his time echoing harvesters around.
You don't include resources generated by echoed harvester into equantion because in both cases (echo / no echo) it will generate the same amount. Those 5 seconds come from the fact that with echo you will start growing new harvester 5 seconds later, so it will start generating resources 5 seconds later (assuming that in both cases it will grow with the same speed)

Echo does not give you any profit if the harvesters will be grown with same speed. but even if that costs me almost 3 res, I still use it because of all advantages it gives and in fact it requires less focus since you don't need to constantly watch over drifter.
Última edición por Sylwester; 13 de Feb a las 13:11
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