Stenkfour Jun 25, 2014 @ 3:43am
Build orders!
I've recently started playing NS2, and as a SC2 player I really want to become a good commander here.
I've learned the basics pretty quickly in sandbox mode and while being a regular soldier, but the second thing that is important for me - is a nice basic build order.
The problem is, I can't really find any build orders neither for marines or aliens. I wanted to try to figure it out myself with bots, but the game gives me some kind of error.

I really hope that someone will write down at least one basic build order, preferably for marines.
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Gorry Jun 25, 2014 @ 3:54am 
Marines have 2 basic build orders...
1st-armory, Armslab, weps 1 or armor 1
2nd- Armory, Obs, Phasetech and then 2 phasegates.
When the build path is finished start the other one.
Stenkfour Jun 25, 2014 @ 3:59am 
Originally posted by Gorry:
Marines have 2 basic build orders...
1st-armory, Armslab, weps 1 or armor 1
2nd- Armory, Obs, Phasetech and then 2 phasegates.
When the build path is finished start the other one.

When I said I've learned the basics, I meant the most basic basics xD
So it would be cool if your build order could be more detailed. I mean, I still need to know when to build extractors, when to build CC, and what should I do in mid and late game. But thanks anyway.
Cat Jun 25, 2014 @ 4:04am 
1st : Marine dont need 3 Command Station ( noob rookie )

2nd : ARm labs is the most important thing you want to keep upgrade >> press J to view team tech
Stenkfour Jun 25, 2014 @ 4:26am 
Originally posted by Jack:
1st : Marine dont need 3 Command Station ( noob rookie )

2nd : ARm labs is the most important thing you want to keep upgrade >> press J to view team tech

That is very unconstrucrive. Besides, it's not even a build order, more like complete basics. Also, I am seeing 3 CCs in late game all the time, and it looks reasonable to me because of sudden alien attacks, especially when there are few of them at the same time.
Apocalypse Jun 25, 2014 @ 5:04am 
The 3rd CC is mainly to delay aliens to take a 3rd tech-points. Aliens strongly want that 3rd point, denying them this is critical in many games.

Besides that, the build orders cover all that you can plan ahead. You want every extractor that you can get hold of it, you do not want to delay in most cases your basic build order for that still, but it really depends how the first contact between aliens and marines went. If your marines are rookies you might want to have armor first, if your marines are very good you might get away with going straight to weapon upgrades 2 and 2 arcs.

It all depends how the game goes, if you kill those first lerks early or not, how much harassment your marines get against the enemy team, etc

So besides those most basic build orders nothing is really that fixed. Besides that, as rule of thumb, you need to hold an extractor for 60 seconds to make it worth the investment. (Yeah, I know more basic stuff.)
Stenkfour Jun 25, 2014 @ 5:35am 
Originally posted by Apocalypse:
The 3rd CC is mainly to delay aliens to take a 3rd tech-points. Aliens strongly want that 3rd point, denying them this is critical in many games.

Besides that, the build orders cover all that you can plan ahead. You want every extractor that you can get hold of it, you do not want to delay in most cases your basic build order for that still, but it really depends how the first contact between aliens and marines went. If your marines are rookies you might want to have armor first, if your marines are very good you might get away with going straight to weapon upgrades 2 and 2 arcs.

It all depends how the game goes, if you kill those first lerks early or not, how much harassment your marines get against the enemy team, etc

So besides those most basic build orders nothing is really that fixed. Besides that, as rule of thumb, you need to hold an extractor for 60 seconds to make it worth the investment. (Yeah, I know more basic stuff.)

This is actually very helpful information, thanks. But it still doesn't look really clear for me, as I have no idea about any timings and buildings priority (I don't mean "what should I defend" in this case).
For example, I obviously realize that I have to capture extractors and provide upgrades to my team depending on situation, but it's all about "in what order do I have to do that".

Besides, I see so many different ways to start a game, for example: fast PG, fast shotguns/grenades/mines etc and I am very confused about what is better to do in most situations. It may look silly, but I've simply played not enough time to...ugh, feel the game and its mechanics.

Maybe I am doing it wrong, but when I started laddering in SC2, I firstly went to write down plenty of build orders. I've played a lot of matches before I could actually start to understand the game and explain each build order step to myself and see the alternatives, so I am sure that I have to do the same in NS2. I realize that these are very different games though.
Sorry for the bad grammar
Azure Zero Jun 25, 2014 @ 5:55am 
Since I'm both a SC2 and NS2 player, I'll say this.
You don't need a ultra-specific build order.
You build extractors/harvasters when your team takes a room with one secure it and have the resources for it.
Stenkfour Jun 25, 2014 @ 6:02am 
Originally posted by Azure Zero:
Since I'm both a SC2 and NS2 player, I'll say this.
You don't need a ultra-specific build order.
You build extractors/harvasters when your team takes a room with one secure it and have the resources for it.

That's the thing, I am not even trying to learn all possible and specific build orders, I just need one basic and "detailed" so I can at least start playing as commander and be a little confident with my plan/strategy
Ixian Jun 25, 2014 @ 6:29am 
Who am i: Ixian, the commander of onFire, and frequent merc comm for premier division. I play with people who wants play this to perfection.

MARINES

What you never want to do:
Start: Amory (10t), Observatory (10t), Reaseach PhaseGate (10t), two PGs (30t) (=60t)

you start with60 res. you basicly just allow people to get to one point faster, to be more agressive. But they really can't be, because they have someone out on the field they MUST defend(or the 60 res you just spend will be useless). Basicly, this strategy only allows you to get your marines out faster, not build any advantage - this strategy only works on stops, and even then it sucks. Everybody who does this is noobs and cannot see the difference between the team doing really well without you, and the strategy actually working.

Here is two buildorders thats viable to public play, if you feel like your guys can hold the line, and not let anybody through:
1, phase 1)
Armslab -> Armor 1 (as fast as possible!)
2 RTs.
objectives: capture 5 rts, and do not loose any of them (very hard in public play), get more if you feel your team can hold it.
1,2)
Get weapons 1 if your people aren't dying too much. If they are, 2nd IP.
1,3)
work towards weapons 3. if its going great you will have it by 6:40 game time. SGs finish upgrading when weapons 2 does or when fades does.
1,4)
Go insane on the res capturing. The more the better.
PGs or armor 2. This depends if fades are out or not. If fades are out, armor 2, if not, pgs. With fades out, it beomes increasingly difficult to get and hold part of the map. If you succed in getting 3+ marines together in a good pgs location, by all means, go for pgs. But in public play , this will be difficult.
1,5)
AA into Proto, into JPs.

And thats a full build, down to its very core. This focuses on getting your marines upgraded, as they are your best rescourse out on the map. This will allow them to have an advantage and if everything goes will, continue to snowball out of control to the point where the aliens die like flies. This build is a guideline. I will go into details of diversions after the second build.

Why armor 1 and not weapons 1?
to kill a marine:
Armor 0: Parasite +2 bites /3 bites
armor 1: 3 bites

against

Bulletdamage (rifle)
Weapons 0: 9
Weapons 1: 10

SEVERELY longer time to not only respons to an alien biting them, but also to fire bullets in their ugly face. Also gives you more room to be delayed on the medpacks. Always, ALWAYS armor first.

2,1)
2nd. IP, armory-> mines.
2 RTs.
2,2)
MOAR RTs, never below 4. just about the same objective as above, while this build seems like it can do with less.
2,3)
Armslab, focus upgrades, -> armor 1 -> weapons 1->>3
2,4)
just about same ♥♥♥♥ as before. sgs when fades pop or weapons 2, whatever comes first. Same build from hereon out.

With the base protected by mines any rushed untill a lerk comes and clear them out (which should not ever happen if your marines play well), your marines can afford to be very agressive. With their own upgrades delayed, they defenetly need to make some damage to the alien economy, and hopefully deny rts and kill off rts, and thereby delaying upgrades and lifeforms.

Now for some general deviation you can make:
ARCing: positions like Nano on Veil needs to be arced or cleared from the very start of the game if you want to make good steps towards winning. depending on the situration, which you will get a feeling for the more you play. 3 ARCs atleast are needed when you want to arc, or a simple gorge can outheal your damage. Building an OBS nearby will alert your marines of incoming and save you a few res on scans, and most importantly you will not have to go back and scan all the time, but instead go med your marines. ARCing should be done midgame near 2(W)-1(A) upgrades. going for earlier pgs, will help you alot to hold the position. If you spawn shipping on Tram, arcing warehouse from north tunnels is also a very nice deviation. Make sure that your marines are there to protect the arcs as they will take alot of the alien attention. with atleast 45 tres (Robo (10) + arc upgrage (5), 3 x ARCs (30) put into this, this is not a small endavear and you NEED to do some real damage. If you do this endgame, its not a big a deal as you will be searching for things to spend your res on sometimes, IF things are going well.

When things are going REAL well and you're holding +6 rts for several minutes, you go Catpacks. These ♥♥♥♥ers are OP, and will turn any battle around. Easy to kill oni with and just a huge tempoary upgrade for your marines. They are expensive so be very carefull to hit them, and keep your resflow high.

Now, what makes an OK commander to a superior competitive commander:
Strategy: Know the strategy, know the zoning, keep your marines in line, know when you can push and when you can't, know the limit of your marines. Dont let your marines wait for you to drop an RT or power - you should be waiting for them... ALWAYS.... ALWAYS!!!!

And last but not least: Medpack your minions. Medpacks will win you engagements, medpacks will win you the game. Be on top of those medpacks. Marines will like you for all the things above. But they will love you for your medpacking. Train this skill, and be there when you are needed. This is the most important ♥♥♥♥ right here. MEDIIIIC!!!!!

ALIENS:
As an alien commander you have alot less influence over the combat. Your job is to push the limit and be greedy. This is how a standart opening looks in public.

1,1)
upgrade your hive to Crag or Shift (10 TR)
1 drifter (8 TR)
cyst to the naurals (10-12 TR)
1,2)
2 harvesters (16 TR)
cyst to another RT.

Be greedy as ♥♥♥♥. Lets take tram as an example. start data. cyst mezz and platform. dont drop them. Notice where you guys pick stuff off. if they clear hub, platform is safe - typically some good shots go here to deny you the RT. both can be quad cysted, but quad cyst after cysting to both locations. Cysts build in the order you place them.
With things now going well, you cysts to warehour and ore. If you had a gorge, they should have their tunnel connection main to ore. With 5 RTs you're in for a VERY good game. keep these RTS. near the 8-10 minute mark you should drop the 2nd hive to stay on top of it. You should already have all 3 shells or spurs by this point. Give north tunnels a crag and two whips if they keep pushing through it. Mezzanine and ore does really well with a crag and a whip too. ore is a must, your aliens will love the forward healing station. On this maps you need to keep the marines from gettng a PG in hub. If they decide to ARC mezz from elevator they are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ - be pleased that they throw away res and do almost no damage. If they go north tunnels, tell every alien to repsond to it. Before they set it up idealy, its going to be harder to put down if you wait too long. Drifters are great scouts, scout this location regularely mid/late game.

now for some general advice

NEVER DROP A STRUCTURE WITHOUT HAVING A DRIFTER OR AN ALIEN TO SEE IF ITS CLEAR!!!

ALWAYS TRIPLE OR QUAD CYST AROUND AN RT ( all cysts aroud must reach the RT nozzle - this will take alot long for the marines to decyst. Marines will hate you for this, and this will buy enough time for your aliens to repons to it and kill the marines before the damage is done. Delay the additional cysts - drop them when its safe. Marines popping the chain will cause unnessesary damage to your economy if you drop them all stait away)

ALWAYS MAKE SURE YOUR UPGRADES ARE SOMEWHAT SAFE FROM LONG POWs (nothing more annoying than a marines just picking them off. put them in a place hard to get for the marines, or near the hive allowing you to jump into their face. A crag as cover does wonders)

WHEN THINGS ARE GOING OK, CYSTS AGRESSIVELY (It is really annoying for a marine to repsond to a resnote only to find out its cycsts doing damage to the armor, and really lovely for a skulk to find an RT without armor to bite down. If you got your 5 rts and they just cleared repair, you are too late on the cysts. Cysts when the combat is starting/mid-combat. cysts are cheap, and if you're lucky in pub games they are gonna go for a cysts and not the aliens)

OMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOM (Resnotes are tasty. All skulks should always, alwaysalwaysalways be searching for the next resnote to bite down. This will delay marine tech, you will see fewer medpack (if you dont, you know their commander is tunnelvisioning and they are stagnating in tech and building). Keep calling out the resbiting, keep reminding your team to resbite. Let your killing machine do the dirty work defending and punching holes in their defence. Lerks are your killing machine untill SGs are up. Then they become utility spiking the marines and resbiting too. Fades will always be pure death throughout the game)

Shade is when you know your team is good and want to have fun - mid games will be hard with shade, and impossible engame without a second hive!

AS A COMMANDER, THE UNIQUE PART OF NS2:
...you are the leader of the team. Your team will expect you to make calls. If someone else is doing so its fine, but make sure its only one. More than one gets confusion. People in public gaming likes to be held in a tight leash, always being told where to go as a marine. Be nice, be positive, you are the guy whos always supposed to have a plan. Reflect after each game, why did you win? why did you loose? You ALWAYS make a mistake that you could easily have prevented with the knowledge in front of you. Be the positive reenforcement. But with all this said - be yourself. People know when you're trying to be something you're not - and they will not trust you if they feel something is odd. You need that trust to win the game. Find out how YOU like to control a team, theres countless ways to do so.

My name is Ixian, The Singing Skulk. I hope i've helped you get an idea about the difficulty commanding, and help you on the way. If you wish to try this game on hardcore go to ENSL.org and join the gather. This is the competitive community and we are always looking for fresh blood and compertition.

Have a nice day
-Ixian
Ixian Jun 25, 2014 @ 6:32am 
PS - get a 2nd chair if you are afraid you're going to get rushed. If you're about to kill off the last hive, get CC blueprins all around the map to deny any drops and secure your victory. This is, and will every be on build 266 the only reason to get additional CCs. Exosuits suck as much as PGS first.
Azure Zero Jun 25, 2014 @ 6:39am 
Marines have 3 build orders

1st-Armory, Armslab, weps 1 or armor 1
2nd- Armory, Obs, Phasetech and then 2 phasegates.
3rd- Armory ->Advanced Armoury -> Prototype (Rare path to go first)
When the build path is finished start the other one.

Each one of these is a good build order and have lead to a victory, is one going to guarantee victory, No.
The timing of Extractors is never solid, or follow an order.
The first 2 extractors tend to be sure bets, but the rest don't count on the timing or an order.
The reason for this is alien tactics tend to mess up the the build order with extractors included as they my do something that requires your attention and you lose something that needs replacing ASAP.

Generally NS2 build orders never include Extractors due to various elements in NS2.
If your to hung up on a build order with extractors, your not going to be flexible enough to command in NS2 as one good alien push / hit-n-run could throw your build order and plans out the door.

You can learn from the masters by joining a game with a marine player with this icon: , be up front your going to be commanding for the first time and ask for advice as the game goes.
Players with a badge are known to be commanders, and most will help you, though a few will be jerks.

Now I would NOT recommend playing commander first go, be a soldier for the first couple games to get a feel for the game and to observe how the commanders go about things.
Ixian Jun 25, 2014 @ 6:47am 
Players with a commanders badge is not a show of skill, but a show of time spend in the chair. Some of them are jerks, others aren't. a few is good, and others downright bad who think they are good.

@Azure. Only the first buildorder you purposed is viable. the rest is "special tactics" if you want to pull off some CRAZY ♥♥♥♥ and downright bad as a build order.

EDIT. sorry none of them are viable, didn't see the amory first. which is a waste of res, and will slow down your resflow significantly.

The thing you got COMPLETELY right is that as a new player. Learn the field. Learn what challenges they face, and how you as a commander can enforce them to overcome those challenges
Last edited by Ixian; Jun 25, 2014 @ 6:54am
Stenkfour Jun 25, 2014 @ 6:57am 
Ohh guys that is some extremely useful information, I am really grateful for your help!
Honestly, I was not expecting such a quick feedback. Thanks a lot!
Ixian Jun 25, 2014 @ 7:00am 
There are much more - but this should keep you occupied for some months ;)
Stenkfour Jun 25, 2014 @ 7:04am 
Originally posted by Ixian:
There are much more - but this should keep you occupied for some months ;)

Yeah, I am sure it will ;P
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Date Posted: Jun 25, 2014 @ 3:43am
Posts: 34