Minion Masters

Minion Masters

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Swarm masters
I'm not sure if I'm correct in this, but this is my impression. When I started playing this game, it was a fun tug of war. I had to overwhelm my opponents slowly by countering whatever they threw at me, just as it was shown in the trailer, a game of counters.
But the last patch changed all that. Now we have a short tug of war, then someone gets a swarm in his hand, throws the rage elixir (dunno it's name) on them and they take down the base in 2 seconds. About 80% of the games go like this now. I went from gold 1 to silver 2 to because I refused to adapt to it, but eventualy I gave up and also built this quick swarm deck and now climbing steadily back up. The problem is not that it's not balanced, but deck diversity took a downturn and it's not nearly as much fun as it used to be. It was fun to take calculated risks and let the opponent take 20% of my health to get a stronger card, then slowly damage each other back and forth, but these games where you go from 100% health to 0 in 2 seconds while you can't even build 2 mana, so one mistake and it's game over with no chance to recover (and it's not even a mistake, it's enough not to have the right card in you hand when the opponent does), it's not nearly as much fun.

2 things I'd like to emphasize:

- I'm not sure if it was brought on by the patch or people just caught up to this strategy lately.

- I'm not crying about losing, as I said I also adapted my deck eventualy to this 'meta' and now I'm winning steadily again. I'm crying about losing the fun I had playing this game. Winning this way is not so much fun. Hey, I have the right cards in hand, and he just depleted his mana, woot, let's spam it, let's give them rage, 2 seconds later game over, I won, and what happened before those 2 seconds is completely inconsequential. The whole game should count, the winner should be decided by how they played the whole game, not just one hand, and it used to be that way, but not anymore.

Am I the only one feeling this way?
Last edited by Erufailon; Jan 11 @ 2:19am
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Showing 1-15 of 23 comments
What exactly in the last patch is changing your fun for the game? Opponent's using Settsu? Your talk about the rampage spell instead (which has been around for a while) and swarms (which were the original meta when the game was still in beta).

Take a look at the leadership board. Are those the types of decks that are beating you? Just remember, what works in gold may not work in diamond or master.

But I will say the game is not in it's most balanced state right now, in my opinion. But the devs are constantly working towards it, which is certainly difficult when they want to bring out new content too.
UncleOwnage  [developer] Jan 11 @ 4:06am 
Interesting point of view, although it's hard to figure out what exactly you mean by swarm.
What you describe sounds like the games end with a combo hand that requires a specific counter, perhaps you could tell us what combos these are?
Originally posted by Khazlariko:
What exactly in the last patch is changing your fun for the game? Opponent's using Settsu? Your talk about the rampage spell instead (which has been around for a while) and swarms (which were the original meta when the game was still in beta).

Take a look at the leadership board. Are those the types of decks that are beating you? Just remember, what works in gold may not work in diamond or master.

But I will say the game is not in it's most balanced state right now, in my opinion. But the devs are constantly working towards it, which is certainly difficult when they want to bring out new content too.

As I said, I'm not sure it was the patch. As I also said, I'm not talking about me being beaten. Out of the last 10 games I had, I won 9, most of them ended with Blood Swarm, a bunch of legionaries and maybe a demon warrior or a rammer at the opponents base with rampage on them taking the base in seconds (most of the time when it's game over the opponent's health bar still has more than half of it in red color). Until waiting for a hand like this it was all slow defense. The games I lost are usualy the same, but with me on the receiving end.

I'm not really even complaining about the state of the game, it's still fun. I just wondered if I'm the only one experiencing the change, because seriously, when I started, most games really were a tug of war, take some HP off the opponent, lose some HP, and so on, until someone lost. Or if it dragged out, in the end one of us got swarmed, because by then you get mana fast, so it becomes a spamfest. But this doesn't seem to happen anymore. I also said, maybe it's just that people got caught up to it. Before I rarely saw blood swarm or wall. Now most decks have them, because those decks at the top have them. Maybe it's just that people started to copy the top decks, idk.
Memfisto Jan 11 @ 7:11am 
Well, I can tell you for sure that you do NOT need a swarm deck to have a high rank. However, you either need to have cards that can deal with the swarm, or you'll need to swarm yourself. It's how every TCG style game works. Rush is either countered by rush, or by building against rush to sustain yourself until your prime comes.

With good knowledge how to efficiently counter for mana advantage and having some AOE clear in your hand, you are relatively safe against swarm, unless it's Ratbo with all his abilities unlocked, then it gets a bit tricky.
You're not alone, and I get where you're coming from.

I've always been a Control type player in TCGs, and similar genres. I like a calculated, cerebral style of play with layers of strategy involved. This game certainly offers that, given I have over 50 hours played with no end in sight, so I agree that it is still fun. I'm still playing and will continue to do so.

I haven't encountered as many Swarm decks as weeks prior, but they're still out there. It seems the meta has shifted to a more Rush style, which I think is what you're describing given how quickly games can end. Slower decks like C2A are pretty much unheard of now and won't survive this meta.

I'd like to be able to build a slower, Control type deck and have it be successful but I don't think the cards are here yet. You could argue that a spell heavy deck with some buffing type minions could be like Control, and I've tried something similar but it doesn't have a very good winrate. Rush has to be countered by Rush right now.

This is similar to what happened with Hearthstone, and Face Hunter decks. Some loved it, while others complained of a stale, boring meta.
Memfisto Jan 11 @ 8:17am 
Originally posted by WhiteCrow:
You're not alone, and I get where you're coming from.

I've always been a Control type player in TCGs, and similar genres. I like a calculated, cerebral style of play with layers of strategy involved. This game certainly offers that, given I have over 50 hours played with no end in sight, so I agree that it is still fun. I'm still playing and will continue to do so.

I haven't encountered as many Swarm decks as weeks prior, but they're still out there. It seems the meta has shifted to a more Rush style, which I think is what you're describing given how quickly games can end. Slower decks like C2A are pretty much unheard of now and won't survive this meta.

I'd like to be able to build a slower, Control type deck and have it be successful but I don't think the cards are here yet. You could argue that a spell heavy deck with some buffing type minions could be like Control, and I've tried something similar but it doesn't have a very good winrate. Rush has to be countered by Rush right now.

This is similar to what happened with Hearthstone, and Face Hunter decks. Some loved it, while others complained of a stale, boring meta.

Controls are still viable, but you have to be careful at the same time, because several cards will be reserved for counterplays, so you don't have that much space to play with.
Originally posted by Memfisto:
Controls are still viable, but you have to be careful at the same time, because several cards will be reserved for counterplays, so you don't have that much space to play with.

By viable, do you mean they're able to climb in Diamond with the necessary winrate? I haven't been able to do it yet, they're a bit too slow. Against Rush your own hand and counters end up betraying you, because if you don't consistently have them you're just done. You'll find yourself beginning to cycle, then wonder if you're better off with a cycle/DW deck. And when you do get off a few counters and gain board control, you'll wonder if you're better off just playing Rush.

Actually, I'm not even sure what the consensus is on what constitutes a "Control" deck in this game currently. They're definitely not proper ones, yet. I want more cards!
Mathias Jan 11 @ 8:58am 
Something definitely shifted in the game since the patch. I am not very good, but I was steadily climbing and well into the gold league with very casual play. Then in one session I got stomped down to bronze.

I realized everyone seemed to be using one of a few different tricks/combos that just dominated everything else.

My old style was definitely more control and that simply doesn't work anymore. I switched to a swarm style and I can finally win again. To do that I basically either have to out-swarm, or deal with Settsu (and whatever deck they build around her).

The game is seriously less fun than it used to be.
Originally posted by Mathias:
Something definitely shifted in the game since the patch.

In my opinion, I believe it was the addition of the Leaderboard. There's pros and cons to it, but it essentially acts as a "netdeck" source built into the game. Deck variety definitely took a dive, as anyone can browse what the top decks are and copy or iterate on them. To be fair though, you could do this previously by simply checking out your opponent's deck after a match, though it was constrained within your pool of possible opponents.

The pro of this, is that if you have a deck that can counter those top decks, you're going to climb very quickly. Though boring, the less variety there is in your opponents decks, the better winrate your counter deck will have. I'm still not sure what to make of this addition, but it certainly has its ups and downs. Facing fewer deck types is a bit stale though, no matter which way you cut it.


Mathias Jan 11 @ 10:18am 
Originally posted by WhiteCrow:
In my opinion, I believe it was the addition of the Leaderboard. There's pros and cons to it, but it essentially acts as a "netdeck" source built into the game. Deck variety definitely took a dive, as anyone can browse what the top decks are and copy or iterate on them.


I think you nailed it. After my terrible loss streak I copied the top deck and started to win once I figured out how to use it.

Definitely less fun.

3FFA Jan 11 @ 10:28am 
Yeah, agreed. I think that the leaderboard should not have the decks shown in future patches. That simple change I think is responsible for killing the game's variety across various leagues.

It's similar to how in Star Craft: Brood War the ability to watch videos and read guides on how to play just like the pros made it so that the ability to reach hiigher up towards the skill cieling of the game itself is all that separated pros from everyone else. They could do things faster, knew the ins and outs of important yet suttle aspects, and didn't make as many blunders. This is a key part of a competitive game scene, however, I don't think adding this so early on in the development of both the game and the playerbase surrounding it is necessarily a good thing. The more players that copy the less variety and fun there is between various leagues. Part of the thing that seperated Gold from Diamond was the type of deck that was in Gold vs the type in Diamond. Slowly you saw decks shifting from Gold to be the same as Diamond decks, however, they often still had some variety even in Platinum where decks would be vary different. Meanwhile, in Diamond today all I see is a few decks that are copied over and over with very slight modifcations of the leaderboard decks (fireball here, lightning there, replacing both for a puff and a Demon Warrior, etc.) and a couple decks that are uniquely intersting and different (like♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥s) while still fitting into the meta's emphasis on big groups of minions 'swarms' and one or two big minions to lead the charge.
Last edited by 3FFA; Jan 11 @ 10:38am
Originally posted by FFA:
Yeah, agreed. I think that the leaderboard should not have the decks shown in future patches. That simple change I think is responsible for killing the game's variety across various leagues.

Agreed. One of the big counters to my favourite deck is lightning bolt. What I do before playing is memorising with player uses that in the top 20 since those are the players I meet the most. When I'm up against such a player I know they will wait to use lighting bolt against me and I plan accordingly.

Don't really think that the leader board should work this way
Memfisto Jan 11 @ 11:22am 
Originally posted by WhiteCrow:
Originally posted by Memfisto:
Controls are still viable, but you have to be careful at the same time, because several cards will be reserved for counterplays, so you don't have that much space to play with.

By viable, do you mean they're able to climb in Diamond with the necessary winrate? I haven't been able to do it yet, they're a bit too slow. Against Rush your own hand and counters end up betraying you, because if you don't consistently have them you're just done. You'll find yourself beginning to cycle, then wonder if you're better off with a cycle/DW deck. And when you do get off a few counters and gain board control, you'll wonder if you're better off just playing Rush.

Actually, I'm not even sure what the consensus is on what constitutes a "Control" deck in this game currently. They're definitely not proper ones, yet. I want more cards!

Well, I don't know either what a proper "Control" would be, but currently I'm more inclined to think of it as countering whatever the oponent is dropping, keeping the and growing the mana advantage, and using the said advantage to summon attacking force while still having mana to defend/support the attack. In that case, it's viable. I haven't really played anything else the whole time and I'm Diamond. Though it requires to know what you can counter with what to gain the mana advantage, as well as knowing when to wait with the deployment. It isn't just throw everything and steamroll.
3FFA Jan 11 @ 12:31pm 
I think it's an Anti-Meta Deck that is viable. Not necessarily control. An Anti-Meta Deck is any Deck that is built to counter the most popular Decks being played.

Meanwhile, a classic control deck tends to focus on:
card advantage(In MM this may be XP advantage?),
countering opposing spells(Not really something you can do directly in MM),
resource denial(only one card can actually do this directly. Not much of a factor).
and Inevitability(as the game goes on for a longer period of time, the player with the stronger cards and board control will tend to win outright over the player with the weaker cards and board control). This isn't as big of a factor in the current meta, however, as the game switches away from just swarms of units being the top level strategy this may become more of a factor overtime.

Note that one of the biggest things with control decks is that they need to be able to maintain board control. There aren't any cards out right now that you can play defensive turtle-style with, just staying on your side of the board until a certain period of time. There's also no way to increase your maximum mana so it isn't like you can wait a while and then unleash Colossi into two lanes simultaneously. Furthermore, I see no ability to maintain consistent board control throughout the game outside of threatening to outright kill your opponent. As a direct result, there is no control decks and currently no means to making a true control deck. All we have right now are counter decks.
Last edited by 3FFA; Jan 11 @ 12:31pm
Memfisto Jan 11 @ 2:53pm 
Originally posted by FFA:
I think it's an Anti-Meta Deck that is viable. Not necessarily control. An Anti-Meta Deck is any Deck that is built to counter the most popular Decks being played.

Meanwhile, a classic control deck tends to focus on:
card advantage(In MM this may be XP advantage?),
countering opposing spells(Not really something you can do directly in MM),
resource denial(only one card can actually do this directly. Not much of a factor).
and Inevitability(as the game goes on for a longer period of time, the player with the stronger cards and board control will tend to win outright over the player with the weaker cards and board control). This isn't as big of a factor in the current meta, however, as the game switches away from just swarms of units being the top level strategy this may become more of a factor overtime.

Note that one of the biggest things with control decks is that they need to be able to maintain board control. There aren't any cards out right now that you can play defensive turtle-style with, just staying on your side of the board until a certain period of time. There's also no way to increase your maximum mana so it isn't like you can wait a while and then unleash Colossi into two lanes simultaneously. Furthermore, I see no ability to maintain consistent board control throughout the game outside of threatening to outright kill your opponent. As a direct result, there is no control decks and currently no means to making a true control deck. All we have right now are counter decks.
To me, currently the "control" deck would be some combination between holding the bridges for XP advantage and hitting 200XP before the opponent if the game happens to drag out, while at the same time always having more threat than your opponent. If he summons anything, deal with it for less mana. If you are close to capping, you put some aggression.
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Date Posted: Jan 11 @ 2:19am
Posts: 23