Minion Masters

Minion Masters

How do ranks work?
Is there a matchmaking system like in Rocket League/CS:GO?
< >
Showing 1-15 of 17 comments
UncleOwnage  [developer] Jan 8 @ 11:33pm 
Yeah, we use an ELO inspired model and match you with the closest possible opponent at the time, expanding the search as time goes on.
Its also split into clearly defined leagues (wood, stone, bronze, silver, gold, platinum, diamond, master and Grand Master).
The final league is the top of the world, and they're ranked relatively, so there's only one Grand Master 1.
Ah. Makes a lot of more sense. I played for a bit and I realized that they work kinda like in Hearthstone. Anyway, loving what you guys have done so far. Keep it up!
Limey21 Jan 9 @ 5:13am 
it's fun till you get to silver then the spam cheese decks are all you see, r.i.p tbh.
Originally posted by Wise Old Owl:
it's fun till you get to silver then the spam cheese decks are all you see, r.i.p tbh.

I understand the frustration. With the addition of the Leaderboards, finding top decks is relatively easy, and chances are you will end up facing many similar decks, if not straight replicas.

It's not all bad though. You know what to expect, and at what frequency. This enables you to build a counter-deck, or something with a good win percentage against the type of decks you face most.

I like this system, because it promotes deck creation. The people who copy decks will only make it so far in the ranks, but it can be frustrating while experimenting with new decks. I've lost quite a bit of ranking doing this, but I can't say it wasn't fun.
Daonitre Jan 11 @ 5:01pm 
Out of curiosity is the ranking working correctly? I can play 3 games as D1 against variable players (others are M5-D2 mostly) and get 40 points each match, then 2 matches later against players in the top 5-10 I've lost 70 points per match and dropped to D2; repeat. I've been on this ridiculous up and down for about 2 hours now. Similar before the update but it didn't feel as cringe-worthy (could be the pace of the matches though). If a player is winning 60-75% of the games they play, even against higher ranks, why would it drop so fast?

I'm not sure nearly double for a loss against someone so much higher rank is warranted...
Memfisto Jan 11 @ 6:40pm 
Originally posted by Daonitre:
Out of curiosity is the ranking working correctly? I can play 3 games as D1 against variable players (others are M5-D2 mostly) and get 40 points each match, then 2 matches later against players in the top 5-10 I've lost 70 points per match and dropped to D2; repeat. I've been on this ridiculous up and down for about 2 hours now. Similar before the update but it didn't feel as cringe-worthy (could be the pace of the matches though). If a player is winning 60-75% of the games they play, even against higher ranks, why would it drop so fast?

I'm not sure nearly double for a loss against someone so much higher rank is warranted...

I've been in the similar situation, where losing against masters lose me 70 points, winning gets me almost the same. I think it's because there isn't that many master/diamond players so it basically puts us in the same basket, even though we are technically 2-3 divisions apart, it's considered more or less same skill level for the time being.
Daonitre Jan 11 @ 7:26pm 
Originally posted by Memfisto:
I've been in the similar situation, where losing against masters lose me 70 points, winning gets me almost the same. I think it's because there isn't that many master/diamond players so it basically puts us in the same basket, even though we are technically 2-3 divisions apart, it's considered more or less same skill level for the time being.
Just to mention the "winning gets me almost the same" ... I'm saying that facing people above /and/ below me (0 to 1 difference avg) are netting 40 on a win (38 and 37 after multiple wins against the same person; i suppose that part kinda makes sense if they are 'same basket' as you said), then they pull from the top o the charts (5-7 divisions) and i lose 70 per loss. generally when you're looking at rankings if you win 1 and lose 1 against same rank you stay even; in this case it would be more like (eg.) 40 for a win at rank, maybe 20 or 30 max for a loss from someone multiple tiers above you.
As another example, say you end up facing the same person 10 times (that happened a few times to me recently) where you each win every second game... you'll both fall through the ranks even though it's obviously an even match (40 win - 70 loss = -30 points total). In this case you're apparently evenly matched so the logical thing would be keep the same rank for both.

Without access to the math behind the system we can't guarantee that the system is working as intended... but I would like to know whether or not this type of behavior is intended at least. ;)
Is the idea to give some semblance of progression / skill, or grind at specific times to avoid facing off against the top 20?

Keep in mind that this is still far out of reach of most players... it takes time to get the cards (though admittedly they come a bit faster than you think but starts to level off hard near the end).
Memfisto Jan 11 @ 7:33pm 
Originally posted by Daonitre:
Originally posted by Memfisto:
I've been in the similar situation, where losing against masters lose me 70 points, winning gets me almost the same. I think it's because there isn't that many master/diamond players so it basically puts us in the same basket, even though we are technically 2-3 divisions apart, it's considered more or less same skill level for the time being.
Just to mention the "winning gets me almost the same" ... I'm saying that facing people above /and/ below me (0 to 1 difference avg) are netting 40 on a win (38 and 37 after multiple wins against the same person; i suppose that part kinda makes sense if they are 'same basket' as you said), then they pull from the top o the charts (5-7 divisions) and i lose 70 per loss. generally when you're looking at rankings if you win 1 and lose 1 against same rank you stay even; in this case it would be more like (eg.) 40 for a win at rank, maybe 20 or 30 max for a loss from someone multiple tiers above you.
As another example, say you end up facing the same person 10 times (that happened a few times to me recently) where you each win every second game... you'll both fall through the ranks even though it's obviously an even match (40 win - 70 loss = -30 points total). In this case you're apparently evenly matched so the logical thing would be keep the same rank for both.

Without access to the math behind the system we can't guarantee that the system is working as intended... but I would like to know whether or not this type of behavior is intended at least. ;)
Is the idea to give some semblance of progression / skill, or grind at specific times to avoid facing off against the top 20?

Keep in mind that this is still far out of reach of most players... it takes time to get the cards (though admittedly they come a bit faster than you think but starts to level off hard near the end).

The 37/38 after multiple wins is because the devs said that 3 win streak bonus stops in diamond+. It says "win streak", but it gives you normal elo/2, twice. Matching against the same ranked person and being tie while both losing... that is a bit weird. We would need dev's word on why that is happening, I don't really remember how my points against ranks go, but I know that I also need to win a lot, even against masters to climb anything. You don't really need cards to be viable in higher ranks, having only gray/greens still keeps you competitive, but yeah, higher can give you an edge in specific runs.
Daonitre Jan 11 @ 7:53pm 
I'm not talking about win streak. I'm in diamond so I'm well aware there's no win streak bonus.

I'm saying this happens:
start off 15/460 diamond 1
-face diamond 2 and win, get 40 (55/460)
-face master 4 and win, get 40 (95/460)
-face master 1 and lose, lose 70 (25/460)
-face diamond 1 and win, get 40 (65/460)
-face master 1 and lose, lose 70 (455/460 diamond 2; rank drop)

...the number exact for D2 might be off, haven't been on the PC for a few hours but this illustrates the point. I'm winning against people my rank and losing rank to people who are much higher. I'm also winning with a higher than 50% rate.

This is exactly what happened to me earlier many times in a row before I got ticked off and posted. :P ... after 2-3 rounds of the above it would face me against a Plat which would bump me back to D1 and continue.

I'm "winning" but not winning. Can't help but think it's just re-enforcing the people at the top. Doesn't seem logical so I'm asking instead of ranting this time.

Edit: the 38 and 37 were oddball numbers I saw after facing the same person and winning every time over more than 10 matches. I think he was stuck in the same loop i was; though he started D1 with me D4 earlier in the day and the last I saw he was D2 while I was stuck in the loop bouncing in and out of D1.
Last edited by Daonitre; Jan 11 @ 7:54pm
Splat Jan 12 @ 11:51am 
I already mentioned this strange behaviour here:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/489520/discussions/0/144512942753114668/#c144512942759152010

The higher ranked guy that takes 70 off your points is not actually getting 70 himself. He most likely is only receiving 40 points too. And when you win 40 points from the other guy he will be losing more than 40. Possibly even more than 70. So points are taken out of the system.

So i am not sure how this system works. In Elo or Glicko ranking points can never be taken out, nor can extra be created for winstreaks. It has to be a closed system. This is evidently not the case for all the ranks prior to Grand Master.
Last edited by Splat; Jan 12 @ 11:52am
3FFA Jan 12 @ 12:04pm 
Yeah, I'd very much like an official explanation of how this works. Even just a general idea(beyond 'it just works')
Daonitre Jan 12 @ 4:55pm 
Originally posted by Splat:
I already mentioned this strange behaviour here:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/489520/discussions/0/144512942753114668/#c144512942759152010
<snip> In Elo or Glicko ranking points can never be taken out, nor can extra be created for winstreaks. It has to be a closed system. This is evidently not the case for all the ranks prior to Grand Master.
I missed that post when i searched for the info, thanks for the link (it's exactly what I was trying to say but better stated). This is exactly why I was confused; In the first response here:
Originally posted by UncleOwnage:
Yeah, we use an ELO inspired model <snip>
then realizing how many points i was losing when i faced higher ranks... didn't make sense.

Having pushed through to M4 (i was #13 last i checked, probably dropped by now) recording all of the match info and rankings, the numbers seemed to be evening out a bit so I think you're right. It gets less crazy the closer you are to grand master...
LOLPATROL  [developer] Jan 13 @ 7:39am 
That sounds strange, can anyone send a log or take some screenshots after it happens? I just tried to replicate it and I can't make it happen. You shouldn't lose 70 points if you are so many ranks apart, and only gain 40 if you are evenly matched.

Evenly matched should get you -/+80. Minimum, when very far apart, is +/-40 regardless of how many are in the ranks.

The system is not strictly ELO. We inflate the ratings with win streaks. That is why we have to introduce seasons. More on that later.
Last edited by LOLPATROL; Jan 13 @ 7:42am
Daonitre Jan 13 @ 8:00am 
Sorry for the breakdown, not intended to be rude; just want to be clear which parts I'm responding to:
Originally posted by LOLPATROL:
That sounds strange, can anyone send a log or take some screenshots after it happens? I just tried to replicate it and I can't make it happen. You shouldn't lose 70 points if you are so many ranks apart and only gain 40 if you are evenly matched.
Try replicating a loss as Platinum 1 - 3 vs masters (leaderboard level) if you haven't already. I've been writing my gains and losses (with the name of opponent and their rank vs my current rank) since posting this and while I don't have any screenshots I can say that after hitting master 5 the gain/loss thing evened out. Before patch while still Plat 1-2 I was seeing the -70 regularly (as mentioned above).

Originally posted by LOLPATROL:
Evenly matched should get you -/+80. Minimum, when very far apart, is +/-40 regardless of how many are in the ranks.
Is this still the case in Master+? I can probably get you some screenshots of gaining 60-80 and losing 105 at a shot (recorded, he was only 4 ranks under me).

Originally posted by LOLPATROL:
The system is not strictly ELO. We inflate the ratings with win streaks. That is why we have to introduce seasons. More on that later.
That makes more sense; and any time seasons are involved I automatically assume it's to cover up some weird math that would otherwise get screwy... Seasons are good anyway though so no complaints ;)
There were a few games where the matching system was great but after 2 weeks due to players who were not stable players (people leaving and joining) the ranking had to be reset... another, (ancient web-based game) reset every week. It's really weird to log in one week and find out you've moved 4000 ranks on the leaderboard because the game cut out inactives and added returning/new players.
3FFA Jan 13 @ 7:49pm 
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=841757379
Screenshot of it happening with losing 95 points
Opponent: Shiro Diamond 4
Me: 3FFA Diamond 1 230/450
Will email log now.
(I know this isn't even, just sending to make sure it fits ur formulas)
Last edited by 3FFA; Jan 13 @ 8:32pm
< >
Showing 1-15 of 17 comments
Per page: 15 30 50