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Devs can we have some feedback please. "VR"
I really would like your thoughts on this please

I read this before from you guys ..
And I quote...
"Currently VR with Fragmented has been placed on hold. It was causing a ton of motion sickness."

But I have to say, (with all due respect) -it does not make much sense on two points.

1, for the player.
There are already many many fully motioned, fully immersive, and fast moving games, either out, or in the making. Which are in VR with thousands of people playing, and loving them. From every genre...

🌟 ARK, Subnautica, Project Cars, Elite Dangerous.... etc etc..etc.

🌟 Then there is VorpX, Bringing Skyrim, Witcher, dishonored, No Mans SKy.. and hundreds more..

http://www.vorpx.com/supported-games/

🌟 And then there are many coming this year natively. Including Fall Out 4, Doom, ARK PARK, Osiris, (devs said they are bringing VR) ,Syren, Heavy Gear Assault, and on and on...
And I have only mentioned titles that include Vive compatibility. As Oculus like to time code their native games.

My point being this game could be WOULD BE amazing.. in VR.
And as to the MY problem...
There are so many very VERY simple options to put in place, to help with those who do get MS in full motion locomotion.
🌟 1. Player configurable Vignettes around the screen when moving. to reduce screen size.

🌟 2, floor grid (again when moving,) helps massively in MS reduction.

🌟 3, In game chaperone. (Either the steamVR basic one) -or a custom one to suit the devs. Again only when moving, or not.

And all of these options being just that. "options."
For the more iron stomached they turn them all off. For those who LOVE VR but get queasy they can have 1 or all on. (Or whatever the devs include in the game.)
There are other MS reducing tricks implemented by devs, as a Google search would reveal.

And then there is the point that..
The more a person plays "fully motion games" in VR. It is a recognised fact that VR motion sickness becomes less, and less, the more a person gets used to VR.

The second point is for you guys. The Devs.
This is IMHO a great game.
That is not receiving (As yet) the Kudos and respect it deserves. And for what I can see is (for the most part) from Repopulation fans who are comparing.

However...

By including VR in this excellent game. You would not only be pleasing many existing Fragmented, an VR owners. But also attracting a WHOLE NEW demographic of players.

Now I have heard people say. "The VR population is only small." This is incorrect in two ways...

🌟 1, Vive owners alone number WAY over 200.000. and then there is all the Rift owners,and the OSVR owners. So Thousands++ of VR owners all gagging for new great VR titles.

🌟 2, Just that.... Thousands++ of VR owners (All on Steam) -searching Steam daily for new.. "REAL" games, not tech demos, or wave shooters, But full, content rich, fully motioned, deep games... just like Fragmented.

Lets put it this way...
If, lets call it.. 300k Steam users have VR, (its WAY higher) -but lets just say that amount on Steam, and you got just 1% thats 3000 seats sold... That would not sell until its in VR.
And thats just 1%

Many VR games as of yet are indie, basic games. some are amazing.
But "real games" are now just coming along

And remember its a niche market.
So even though there are millions of "none VR players" ATM. There are also other considerations,
The massive amount of competition in none VR game numbers.
The fact that most gamers buy only genres they enjoy, etc etc ...

But VR, is different...
VR players aren't looking for a specific genre, they are looking for great VR games.

Again of which Fragmented would be a doozy.


PS, I realise there are other posts on VR. But started a new one, as I really wanted to hear your thoughts.

Thanks.
Last edited by 💎 Andy 💎; Feb 12 @ 7:54pm
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Showing 1-14 of 14 comments
Sleepyz Feb 13 @ 1:07am 
With the bad reviews (I like it) I don't think the Devs will do much more of anything with this game. I'd just be happy with a bigger map.
J.C. Smith  [developer] Feb 13 @ 5:32am 
I think the main problem is that the experience how it is now does not work well for VR, and to support it in the current client would require some modifications which non-VR players would not enjoy. Getting a functional version in VR was relatively easy, minus the UI issues, but even without the UI (the only part of the UI that was functional before was the health bars and the action bars, inventory window didn't work right) issues motion sickness was a problem due to the movement speed, and quick turning. The scale also contributed imo. Whatever the case, after a few minutes it would make me feel nauseous and I have a higher than average tolerance to that. So there is really no quick fix solution for it.

The UI issues are also a problem. In the test version we had locked a UI to the characters view (UIs need to be in 3D Space in VR) and that worked to display health bars, and action bars, but it was a bit offsetting and stood out to have it on the screen. There have been some improvements in recent versions of Unreal Engine which makes handling more complex UIs a bit easier, but in general in VR you want a minimalistic UI, and Fragmented's UI is not that. The character sheet has a lot of things going on there, as does the crafting window.

There are possible ways to make an enjoyable VR experience out of it, but it would require some large scale changes. That would be easier to do if we separated VR and non-VR versions into a different client, but otherwise I think we'd run into issues with not being able to make both sides happy otherwise.
Originally posted by J.C. Smith:
I think the main problem is that the experience how it is now does not work well for VR, and to support it in the current client would require some modifications which non-VR players would not enjoy. Getting a functional version in VR was relatively easy, minus the UI issues, but even without the UI (the only part of the UI that was functional before was the health bars and the action bars, inventory window didn't work right) issues motion sickness was a problem due to the movement speed, and quick turning. The scale also contributed imo. Whatever the case, after a few minutes it would make me feel nauseous and I have a higher than average tolerance to that. So there is really no quick fix solution for it.

The UI issues are also a problem. In the test version we had locked a UI to the characters view (UIs need to be in 3D Space in VR) and that worked to display health bars, and action bars, but it was a bit offsetting and stood out to have it on the screen. There have been some improvements in recent versions of Unreal Engine which makes handling more complex UIs a bit easier, but in general in VR you want a minimalistic UI, and Fragmented's UI is not that. The character sheet has a lot of things going on there, as does the crafting window.

There are possible ways to make an enjoyable VR experience out of it, but it would require some large scale changes. That would be easier to do if we separated VR and non-VR versions into a different client, but otherwise I think we'd run into issues with not being able to make both sides happy otherwise.


I hear what you are saying, and it makes sense.

My comment would be.

"How is it that all the other complex games do it.?"
And they do... Very successfully.

And as previously mentioned, games with complex UIs, are doing it i VR.. Whether in game like ARK, Subnautica, etc.
Or in the options menus like Assetto Corsa, and Project Cars, and War thunder. and scores more.

And then as- (again) -previously mentioned, Games that are not native to VR, but are Very configurable in the VR space in engines such as VorpX, and Vireio.
These programs configure games into VR (literally) on the fly, including the UI.

I really hope that you guys can bring Fragmented to the VR community, as I believe it could / would benefit both us, and you.
Last edited by 💎 Andy 💎; Feb 13 @ 7:52am
J.C. Smith  [developer] Feb 13 @ 7:49pm 
@Andy: I think the other games which tacked it on have similar struggles. I don't want to take shots at other games, but one of those games you mentioned had a similar experience to what we had but released it to the public and it was not enjoyable. On a sidenote, I am a firm believer in VR, so this is not a shot at VR. But we are weary of just tacking on VR support and then having players purchase the game for it if we can't make the experience enjoyable, and to date we haven't been able to.

In our case the movement speed is a big problem in VR. And the scale of some of the plants, even though they were designed that way as it was an alien planet, it stands out when you are in VR mode. Something just seems off with it. Now it is certainly possible to do, but it would require us to modify the non-VR gameplay and that carries risk as well as requiring an overhaul to things. We can't allow teleporting on non-VR servers, and that right off the bat knocks out a good chunk of VR players, as some guys won't play a game without it.

Two locomotion types are possible though with the current design. Using the trackpad (or gamepad) to move does work. But the movement rate and turning rates cause nausea. An aim at location and then walk to it seems to be the least nausea inducing mode, where you aim at a spot and instead of teleporting it turns instantly and then walks directly to that point. It puts you at a serious disadvantage against non-VR players though who can move more freely.

We haven't ruled out VR yet. It still may happen. But our original thoughts on VR were that we could simply put the UI into 3d Space and turn on the camera. That approach has not worked. At least not in an enjoyable way. If it does happen it will be a larger overhaul than that and may wind up requiring separate servers.
Viral Feb 15 @ 3:23pm 
Anyone with motion sickness or migrains or similar issues, can not use VR, VR ready games can still cause an increased risk of adverse effects due to some alterations.

While there may be a few and i do mean a few speaking in terms of total gamers, needing VR support to justify the price they paid, a greater majority of gamers have no interest in it. Not just no interest though, a good portion of those again literally do not want it.

So on behalf of your other fans who dont want it, please please focus on all your other issues and put VR far from your thoughts, i promise those of us who simply want your work to reach its goal have no intrest in VR support, we just want you guys content and moving forward, not adding more issues to an already mound of issues you have faced so far.

Last edited by Viral; Feb 15 @ 3:24pm
Originally posted by Viral:
Anyone with motion sickness or migrains or similar issues, can not use VR, VR ready games can still cause an increased risk of adverse effects due to some alterations.

While there may be a few and i do mean a few speaking in terms of total gamers, needing VR support to justify the price they paid, a greater majority of gamers have no interest in it. Not just no interest though, a good portion of those again literally do not want it.

So on behalf of your other fans who dont want it, please please focus on all your other issues and put VR far from your thoughts, i promise those of us who simply want your work to reach its goal have no intrest in VR support, we just want you guys content and moving forward, not adding more issues to an already mound of issues you have faced so far.


Aaaaand...Here's...The.....Difference..... Between.... My Request..... And "ME ME ME".. I mean Yours.

I did not ask for the devs to "put (the option YOU are most interested, in.) --far from their thoughts."

I asked for the inclusion of VR, I said nothing about not working (as well) on the other stuff.

Here's a tip for you. "Other people have opinions, and rights as well as you."
It will serve you well to rem that little snippet.

Oh and in a few months, years. who knows you may look back and think.. "Dang what the hell was I on about" as you don your own HMD.

Good times, good times.
Last edited by 💎 Andy 💎; Feb 15 @ 3:49pm
Originally posted by Andy:
Originally posted by Viral:
Anyone with motion sickness or migrains or similar issues, can not use VR, VR ready games can still cause an increased risk of adverse effects due to some alterations.

While there may be a few and i do mean a few speaking in terms of total gamers, needing VR support to justify the price they paid, a greater majority of gamers have no interest in it. Not just no interest though, a good portion of those again literally do not want it.

So on behalf of your other fans who dont want it, please please focus on all your other issues and put VR far from your thoughts, i promise those of us who simply want your work to reach its goal have no intrest in VR support, we just want you guys content and moving forward, not adding more issues to an already mound of issues you have faced so far.


Aaaaand...Here's...The.....Difference..... Between.... My Request..... And "ME ME ME".. I mean Yours.

I did not ask for the devs to "put (the option YOU are most interested, in.) --far from their thoughts."

I asked for the inclusion of VR, I said nothing about not working (as well) on the other stuff.

Here's a tip for you. "Other people have opinions, and rights as well as you."
It will serve you well to rem that little snippet.

Oh and in a few months, years. who knows you may look back and think.. "Dang what the hell was I on about" as you don your own HMD.

Good times, good times.
You know Andy, your request has to be the most not only pleasent one, but also the most well descriptive one I've have ever seen for such a game as this... for any game for that matter.

But I must mention that I personally have never experienced VR for myself, and I am very interested in experiencing it, but, I can't afford one at the moment, nor do i have the space for one, sadly.

Hopfully that will change in the near future. But I noticed how you mentioned that Fallout 4 and Skyrim will be including a VR option as well. TBH, if that is true, I litterally can't wait for it to be out!

Considering that I love melee combat in both Skyrim and Fallout 4, I would love to be able to put on God mode and just role from there with melee. That personally would awsome AF. I hope you agree.

I am personally excited that VR is gaining popularity in gaming, and this is coming from a standard PC gamer that has used nothing but Keyboard and Mouse.
Last edited by PlagueBearer99; Feb 18 @ 11:10am
I was going to write a comment "thumbing down" the VR feature. After reading Andy's comments and JC's first response, they have changed my mind. Why? Because it would in fact draw attention. Yes, as a marketing gimmick. Not saying it is an invalid game experience idea. It is. Count me among those who would not ever try it that way, but to draw fresh attention, VR fans would probably love it on their own servers. This looks like a worthwhile consideration that could help put Fragmented in a well deserved good light.
Originally posted by Tommy_Atomic:
I was going to write a comment "thumbing down" the VR feature. After reading Andy's comments and JC's first response, they have changed my mind. Why? Because it would in fact draw attention. Yes, as a marketing gimmick. Not saying it is an invalid game experience idea. It is. Count me among those who would not ever try it that way, but to draw fresh attention, VR fans would probably love it on their own servers. This looks like a worthwhile consideration that could help put Fragmented in a well deserved good light.

Well Said Tommy_Atomic... Bravo 💎

And even more so, as you are looking at it purely from a "coverage, and exposure" point of view, and not as a Fragmented VR player.

It would most definitely bring fresh buyers, and consequently "production cash" to the development.

And especially as we know not that only do all new engines have native support for VR...
But also that the excellent Devs of this title..-
-(Well almost "excellent," as they are yet to implement the old VR. They will attain that coveted title once its in.)-😉
-Have said they have a partially working VR system already in place.

As well as new reviews from (again) a different perspective.

I salute you Sir. 💎
Last edited by 💎 Andy 💎; Feb 23 @ 9:28pm
Darzai Feb 27 @ 8:30pm 
Imo in a game that isnt developed specifically for VR, VR will just be a gimmick. And with only a very small amount of potential players having that hardware, its a waste of devtime this early I think.

It could be great PR for an already positively reviewed game, but not for a game still full in development that is struggling to get positive reviews atm.
I think it shows common sense that they are putting this feature on hold for now.
Originally posted by Darzai:
Imo in a game that isnt developed specifically for VR, VR will just be a gimmick. And with only a very small amount of potential players having that hardware, its a waste of devtime this early I think.

It could be great PR for an already positively reviewed game, but not for a game still full in development that is struggling to get positive reviews atm.
I think it shows common sense that they are putting this feature on hold for now.


With all due respect.

I think you have this completely upside down, yep... and back to front.
This game is already a great game..... The main reason for the bad reviews is because the Population crowd are whining thats its not "Population."

Bringing VR would include a WHOLE NEW demographic the "VR population" (pun most def intended.)

I see you are a private profile, So we cannot tell if you own VR or not. I would would wager that you are not.

Hence 2 things...
🌌 1, The reason you are not wanting it, is because you do not yet own the hardware... (yet)
🌌 2, Your reasoning that it is a -(and I quote you.)- "small amount of potential players."
You obvious did not read the OP or any of the following posts..

Let me paraphrase for you.
"Over 200k Vive owners." not including the untold amount of rift owners. and then OSVR.
Oh and that doesn't even include the PSVR users, if Fragmented was ever ported to PS4.

So just taking 1% of just the Vive owners, would be 2000 new seats sold.
And sold to none "population" biased gamers.

So banging away at the game and still receiving prejudiced reviews, when a clear option is staring you in the face.
Maybe not the best way of bringing in new (fresh, none biased.) players.
As I cant see a whole bunch of new purchasers flocking in.... Unless something new is implemented, opening it to that new crowd.

As far as a gimmick? Do you understand what VR is? <--Serious question?
Its not like putting a party hat on a game.. Its the exact same game.. just ALL around you.
Do you also understand that...
✨ A, Almost every new major game engine (Unreal, Unity...etc) has Native VR support built in to it.
✨ B, The Devs of Fragmented already have a half working VR model.

So put all these things together. and its a "bit of a no brainer."

And it has to be said that if you already had VR, I think your request would have been the opposite.
Because Everyone who owns, and experiences VR, wants the option in EVERY game they play.

You will see one day.

So whether the devs add VR, earlier or later.. is yet to be seen.
But once again..
"I am not asking for "VR only."
I am asking for the option. Which..(again) would bring in a whole new community of players...

Ergo = New profits for future developments, which even helps the "none yet VR players."

Winner Winner.. "Virtual" ..Chicken Dinner.

Darzai Feb 28 @ 8:05am 
Originally posted by Andy:
...lotsa VR talk, but not much about why Fragmented should use it, except for that there are people who own a VR headset:/ ...

I don't own VR, no and I don't see it as an integral part for a game like Fragmented. I would rather see games being developed specifically for VR. Because for a game already in EA it requires a lot of new interaction development to make it behave intuitively.

Fragmented was developed with a normal UI in mind, aimed at keyboard+mouse/joypad control. Adding VR support could be a nice bonus, but it doesnt add anything meaningful gameplay wise at this point. It would just add another branch of development for any future patches for the interface.

And no, Fragmented does not stand out enough at this point for a survival game. It requires a lot more development for that. Even the Repopulation before the servers went down was way ahead in terms of content and features (I know they are not meant to be the same type of game). I have hopes they can pull it off, but they are not there yet.

I understand what VR can be, but atm in many cases it is just about wearing your screen in front of your eyes. Which is a very shallow implementation of VR. The most interesting VR games are developed specifically for VR hardware. But yeah, in any game where it is an afterthought,like an addition type of controller support, it is just a gimmick.

You just want VR in your favourite games because you own a headset, thats fine. But I don't think its a good thing overall for Fragmented at this point.

P.S. : Stop assuming things about people you don't know.
Last edited by Darzai; Feb 28 @ 8:13am
d0x360 Mar 27 @ 12:14pm 
Originally posted by J.C. Smith:
I think the main problem is that the experience how it is now does not work well for VR, and to support it in the current client would require some modifications which non-VR players would not enjoy. Getting a functional version in VR was relatively easy, minus the UI issues, but even without the UI (the only part of the UI that was functional before was the health bars and the action bars, inventory window didn't work right) issues motion sickness was a problem due to the movement speed, and quick turning. The scale also contributed imo. Whatever the case, after a few minutes it would make me feel nauseous and I have a higher than average tolerance to that. So there is really no quick fix solution for it.

The UI issues are also a problem. In the test version we had locked a UI to the characters view (UIs need to be in 3D Space in VR) and that worked to display health bars, and action bars, but it was a bit offsetting and stood out to have it on the screen. There have been some improvements in recent versions of Unreal Engine which makes handling more complex UIs a bit easier, but in general in VR you want a minimalistic UI, and Fragmented's UI is not that. The character sheet has a lot of things going on there, as does the crafting window.

There are possible ways to make an enjoyable VR experience out of it, but it would require some large scale changes. That would be easier to do if we separated VR and non-VR versions into a different client, but otherwise I think we'd run into issues with not being able to make both sides happy otherwise.

What he's saying is 3000 sales wouldn't cover development fees to iron out the issues adding VR would cause.

They would probably need more like 30,000.

What devs of certain games should do is some type of preorder system for VR. Then they can see the real interest. The problem would be conversation rate from preorder to sale.
Originally posted by d0x360:
Originally posted by J.C. Smith:
I think the main problem is that the experience how it is now does not work well for VR, and to support it in the current client would require some modifications which non-VR players would not enjoy. Getting a functional version in VR was relatively easy, minus the UI issues, but even without the UI (the only part of the UI that was functional before was the health bars and the action bars, inventory window didn't work right) issues motion sickness was a problem due to the movement speed, and quick turning. The scale also contributed imo. Whatever the case, after a few minutes it would make me feel nauseous and I have a higher than average tolerance to that. So there is really no quick fix solution for it.

The UI issues are also a problem. In the test version we had locked a UI to the characters view (UIs need to be in 3D Space in VR) and that worked to display health bars, and action bars, but it was a bit offsetting and stood out to have it on the screen. There have been some improvements in recent versions of Unreal Engine which makes handling more complex UIs a bit easier, but in general in VR you want a minimalistic UI, and Fragmented's UI is not that. The character sheet has a lot of things going on there, as does the crafting window.

There are possible ways to make an enjoyable VR experience out of it, but it would require some large scale changes. That would be easier to do if we separated VR and non-VR versions into a different client, but otherwise I think we'd run into issues with not being able to make both sides happy otherwise.

What he's saying is 3000 sales wouldn't cover development fees to iron out the issues adding VR would cause.

They would probably need more like 30,000.

What devs of certain games should do is some type of preorder system for VR. Then they can see the real interest. The problem would be conversation rate from preorder to sale.

30.000 new sales...
How on earth did you reach this laughable conclusion.

Seeing that not only have many games introduced VR. because...

1. The up-to date engines, Unreal, Unity etc, now have Native VR support.

2, Many none VR games,
ARK,
Subnautica,
Elite Dangerous,
Assetto Corsa,
Project Cars, etc etc .. Have implented VR, And none with this 30k extra new sales to justify it. They did it because..
The VR community is growing.
It gives the game another angle and (demographic)
And because they can <-- See point 1.

3, The Dev of this very game.. Fragmented, has said that they already .. ALREADY have a semi working version of VR... And that done with zero justification of 1 VR user.
So its already there, and would need tuning.

Also 3k sales of a game is VERY substantial on Steam.. So this 30.000 sales of an existing game, with a semi existing VR mechanic, which new engines offer natively...

The next few lines are said with all due respect.. but.
This game sells for 3.50 ($4.40)
And considering the game is already pretty fully fleshed out. So the revenue from the game for 30k sales. (Even allowing for Steams cut, and other expenses) for tuning an already accessible VR... really?
30k!! new sales.. Where the heck did you dream this up??

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