Team Fortress 2
Shadowcon66 (Banned) Sep 11, 2013 @ 8:22pm
Polycount nerfing poorly executed.
On the event update, July 10's "move these weapons up!" have had some okay buffs and nerfs and excellent additions, but those are outside of the polycount's share of the fair.

I would agree with nerfing the polycount sets in under one condition, but it seems that the new generation of the TF team went full develo-nope on how they tried to balance these weapons.

They had completely removed the original bonuses from the sets, and instead gave them all "calling cards", and one was granted a useless taunt effect, due to the knife in the saharan spy set your enternal reward's nature.

The original set bonuses have been moved to the weapons in each specific set.

All with their own reasons.

The reason for moving the set bonuses into one weapon, is because

(1)Players required full knowledge on the other players that equipped the sets
(2)Players becoming constricted in weapon choice, feeling "underpowered" without the set bonus.
(3)Weapon balancing

Anyways, I can answer to all of these questions with ease, and how the update should've and would've been.

For the TF team that worked on the July 10 update, you treat the set bonuses as if they were "extra weapons" weapons. The set bonuses were rewards for using a full set instead.

The Players would have to keep collecting weapons and convert them to metal, like they do anyways. Getting all of the polycount sets without paying any money at all (again) hasn't been a big problem for me, however this is now the new generation of the polycount sets, where prices are cheaper. None of the hats I paid for went above 1.66 refined. Howver, this reason you gave the community feels like you neglect the drop system,
that is still in the game.

You have made some weapons in the polycount sets worthless and meaningless when someone tries to use any of the full sets. Only two sets were over-exagerated with buffs, while the rest were composed of poor reworking choices. One poor choice you made, is not buffing the sydney sleeper to deal headshots, since headshot immunity is gone.
The old set back then with the Croc-a-Style set was balanced, where you gain extra health when people attempt to body-shot you, a kukri that would crit when it normally minicrits, and a sniper rifle that drowns enemy players in jarate. The downsides of the set back then would be the in-ability to perform headshots, and becoming vulnerable to fire. The benefit of using the full set back then, would give you "headshot immunity". Since the Sydney sleeper was great in the set for assisting the team by dousing the enemies in jarate for 8 seconds, where the Croc-a-Style Sniper, or as I'd like to call it, "The Sniperdile" can make perfect chain shots for the enemies to be under the effects of mini crits, and let your team mates pluck them off while you keep shooting jarate at other enemies to be plucked away. He will not have to worry about the other snipers that chose to attack him, while he is supporting his team. However, the Sniperdile must watch out for pyros spamming their flare guns. The sniper class is great in supportment of long-range combat, and the pyro class is great at repression and stressfulness for the enemy team with his weapons of selection.
Now, the sydney sleeper and the bushwaka are not worth using with the DDS, because of it's bullet resistance.
Now for the victimized Saharan Spy set, where the TF team tried nothing to have a weapon relate to the old stats. They just gave the l'Etranger 40% longer cloak duration, and thats it. Bam. Someone tried buffing the l'Etranger by giving it +20% cloak on hit, keeping -20% damage. The Saharan Spy set's bonus downside "0.5 longer cloak blink time" isn't even there.

You also made some weapons that are a bit better than others.
The Battalion's backup has 50% sentry resistance when rage is deployed, and that means everyone near you has that kind of resistance power. This is really unfair for the defense team on payload servers, because everyone pushing the cart will get that kind of power when the rage is active, and shall have no problem. 50% sentry resistance is a bit too much, and yet this would've made the old tank buster's set bonus better. Because there is little difference in combatting level 3 sentries with or without the old loadout's bonus.
Now, for the ridiculas offender of the buff, the Special Delivary set. The set's primary recieved stats (again) which are +20% healing bonus while active, and higher vulnerability to knockback.
The knockback vulnerability is supposed to be a downside of the weapon.
I believe that this is now the Pomson 6000 for scout, because of how brokenly unbalanced it is.

Where the weapon has 4 pellets in 1 clip, a smaller clip size, and this time the new pomson 6000 called the "Shortstop" has a minor damage penalty in comparison to stock, but here are it's upsides.

Faster reloading speed
Alot more accurate
Faster rate of fire
20% healing bonus while deployed
Knockback vulnerability, which is a free jail-free card.

So why is knockback vulnerability an upside in my eyes and the eyes of others?
Because, this enables you to escape everything
from axtinguesher pyros, to soldiers. You can even do your double jump right before you hit the ground to avoid falling damage, and avoid dangerous map hazards.
If others see the knockback vulnerability as a downside, lets remember that the TF community frowns upon all movement impairing weapons, or when they are beneficial.

What would I have done to make everything better for "nerfing" the polycount sets?

I'd start by decreasing the required refined metals to 3 or 2 to craft a set specific hat to avoid the community's "pay2win" arguement on the polycount sets.

Re-write the Sniperdile's "Headshot immunity" to "Headshot survivability" to help players understand what that really means. Would not change set's bonus statistics in anyway.
Buff the Tank Buster set from 20% sentry resistance, to 50%. When one person is resistant, it isn't too much of a big deal.
Buff the "old" battalions backup to build rage through healing to create synergy with the Black Box, which should not be built through medic's healing, engineer's healing, or resupply cabinet. Let the Black Box gain the extra health from attacking enemies
These are for balancing, as the Tank Buster set deserved a buff, and people often mistaken "Headshot immunity" with the mythical "god mode against headshots". At least, from what I have heard. Give the 0.5 cloak blink time to the Dead Ringer, so during the cloak from that, Bumping into enemies will still give you cloak blink time.

Finally, a nerf for all of the polycount sets, is to give the player an identafiable skin when the set is active on the wearer. An example is to have the sniperdile set have a team colored crocadile vest instead of his usual vest, and a blank baseball shirt for the special delivary set, that has identafiable team colors so players will not have trouble telling what team the scout is on. It should work like those souls from last year's halloween.
This is for solving the "Players require full knowledge" problem for the sets. If that TF team made different textures for each calling cards and models for the calling cards, simple
re-textures should be alot faster than having to make an additional model.

One more nerf that will make the item sets the complete set of "Pay to Win".
Make the hats achievement milestone weapons while using a specific weapon in a set.
The milestone achievement name should be named after the sets.
Croc-a-Style, Tank Buster, Gas Jockey, Special Delivary, Saharan Spy, and so on so forth.
For all of the hats before the update, "Vintage" or "Genuine" qualities will be applied to them.
Genuines will be the dirty set hats, and Vintages will be the clean set hats.

/end of critical review with constructive suggestions.

TL;DR -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=TL;DR
tank buster set should be buffed by letting pre-july 10 battalion backup build rage through healing (not be medics or engineers), increase set sentry resistance from 20% to 50%,
black box would get heals from hitting engineer buildings, change lable "headshot immunity" to "headshot survivability" because it has been mistaken that sniperdiles have god mode against headshots, give anyone wearing a set an identafiable skin so you can tell if the person has a set bonus, saharan spy set gives dead ringer cloak blink time.
make hats achievement milestone items. all pre-existing hats that are dirty will be genuine, and the clean set hats will be vintage.
Last edited by Shadowcon66; Sep 20, 2013 @ 1:55pm
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Showing 1-15 of 250 comments
Delgatto (Banned) Sep 11, 2013 @ 8:37pm 
Well, the ideas below surely do fit an alternative for the polycount nerf.

dat battalions backup buff idea, dat synergy.

I really like on giving special delivary scout a blank baseball shirt, because the weapon the "shortstop" is a baseball reference. The Croc-a-Style crocadile vest idea, sounds cool. I mean, you already have the head of one, the spine of one, now you can wear it's skin around you.
I think Sniper went full Bear Grylls with this
[EH] Talon Sep 11, 2013 @ 8:40pm 
Originally posted by Liam Nesson- Green Arrow:
Well, the ideas below surely do fit an alternative for the polycount nerf.

dat battalions backup buff idea, dat synergy.

I really like on giving special delivary scout a blank baseball shirt, because the weapon the "shortstop" is a baseball reference. The Croc-a-Style crocadile vest idea, sounds cool. I mean, you already have the head of one, the spine of one, now you can wear it's skin around you.
I think Sniper went full Bear Grylls with this

no... not unless they give a taunt for the Jarate where he drinks some of the contents of the jar.
Delgatto (Banned) Sep 11, 2013 @ 8:53pm 
Sorry if I am not replying, on mobile
Making sniper drink jarate with a taunt
Makes it balanced :3
agreed although I was happy since now hats dont give any avantage at all, before the update the polycount hats could of been a advantage
Delgatto (Banned) Sep 11, 2013 @ 9:05pm 
I don't t think that reworking that overhaul would be too late now
I mean like, it's only been 2 months.
Woobie :3 Sep 11, 2013 @ 9:08pm 
I've been a bit influenced.
I now think that the weapons should retain synergy, but should not be a set and should not provide extra bonuses. (You probably said this, but I only skimmed over, as I am busy. Sorry.), and the set effects should be removed completely (for the sake of normality).
To keep along with that "Players required full knowledge on the other players that equipped the sets", I think any weapon with major passive effects (Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol and the like) should have some sort of display to show that their passive effects are active (as the Chargin' Targe does - the shield is noticeable).
To keep with the "Players becoming constricted in weapon choice, feeling "underpowered" without the set bonus." thing, I think some weapons should go along with many other weapons (such as how the Degreaser works many Pyro secondaries), instead of feeling constricted (as the Jarate+Bushwacka combo does).
I didn't read the rest of the passage though. Sorry about that.
Last edited by Woobie :3; Sep 11, 2013 @ 9:08pm
Delgatto (Banned) Sep 11, 2013 @ 9:19pm 
He mentions rewriting the bonus set attribute headshot immunity to headshot survivability so people avoid confusion.

He also mentions about buffing the original tank buster sentry resistance from 20% to 50%, and lets the old battalions backup gain rage through heal- oh you didn't read his arguments in the OP. He prolly left them there so valve can consider his ideas for alternatives for changing the poly count sets.

I never gave my rating o. This

Since I even made a group as rip Saharan spy set, I agree with the idea. Also Shadowcon, sox for deleting my set, I knew it was a bad idea to do that but I just had to sell them after the update.
Delgatto (Banned) Sep 11, 2013 @ 9:42pm 
I see people agree on some parts of your post, OP.
You'll be back a happy OP.
Adam_Heartfound Sep 11, 2013 @ 11:57pm 
I appreciate your take on the re-balence, both it's pros and cons. Unfortunately, the TF2 Team tried their hardest to combat the "power creep" that was becoming more and more apparent as new weapons started opening up strategic possibilities and play-styles that didn't exist before- only to incorrectly re-balence many items/sets and create a situation that fixed nothing whilst leaving a bad taste in the mouths of all veteran players.

I find the currently rocky relationship between us and the TF2 devs easiest to describe like this...
It wouldn't be too farfetched to say it feels like the dev team broke up with us similar to a silly high-school romance. The devs we trusted walked away laughing, holding the hand of their new girlfriend named F2P. Leaving us with the love-letters, that "first month anniversary" mix-CD you made, and good memories gone bad- just pondering "Everything seemed so great, how did things suddenly come to a halt?".

Well, if you understand the picture I just painted, then you know how it turned out- a year later you hear she toyed with him the same way she did to you- and after gradution you run into her somewhere, piece together enough information to figure out her life has spiraled out of control with questionable behavior, and that infatuation you felt in high-school? Well...Let's just say, You wonder how you ever survived being so silly and niave.
( The majority of fickle F2Ps move on to their next flavor of the week- and the effort the devs gave are thrown back in their face.)

"Whoa, dodged a bullet. It coulda' been me." In retrospect, you laugh, taking in everything you've experienced.

Well, the devs and their attempt to impress their ditsy new girlfriend will prove to be a waste of time and effort- and the balance update responsible? It'll be acknowledged only when negetivity is the motive behind a discussion similar to this one.
It's sad, really- But they havn't failed us yet, it just feels like it. Perhaps the removed set perks that havn't appeared on any other items are a sign of future plans, but we're too blinded by disappointment to notice. Perhaps all of this is a small step towards a future endeavor that has been a long time in the making.
Maybe some day soon we'll be rewarded for our loyalty and understanding, despite the hesitation and cynical mood the re-balance has left us brooding about.

Unfortunately, it just raises more questions and frustration amongst us...

How could they fix this? What could possibly make all of it understandable as a "had to be done because..." situation in the future when we look back at this?

What can you think up, that would bring old players back from Dota2- bring new players in as F2P, and motivate current, yet hesitant, F2P players to finally spend a couple bucks in the store? I can't think of anything else- and if we ~have~ learned our lessons from the robo/summer crates spectical, then we know more hats don't have a chance to cure what ails us.
~(Don't worry... It's long and detailed, and totally tl;dr worthy, I know... But I am going somewhere with this. I thank you for your continued interest.)~

On the surface, some have suggested raising the odds of uncrating unusuals, or allowing the purchase of expensive custom hat/effect combos directly from the TF2 Market would be a good idea. Veterans, TF2 Economists, and some of the very brightest minds I've ever seen in any game specific community; analyzing aspects and mechanics of TF2 simply for the fun of it- all have responded with vigor to present enough evidence to prove without a doubt that it would not only be a horrible idea...
It would also start a very subtle degradation to every aspect of the game/community, ultimately pounding the final nail in TF2's coffin. Worse? It would take years to finally become the undeniable "elephant in the room" to those players whom never before concerned themselves with the inner politics behind TF2 as a whole- but now they can't ignore it. We've seen other forms of this subtle terminal illness responsible for the downfall of many great games.. *cough* Lead & Gold *cough*

Again... more things to play "dress-up" with will not help cure our bitterness, nor will making it easier to aquire such items- reducing the cost of a random craft hat by 1 refined just to give an example...A huge up-set to the very intricate TF2 economy is just another possibility that would seem harmless at first, but in time would only result in a crash... Imagine keys being sold on the community market for $1.50 USD. Sounds good until you realize why it's come to this...

The re-balance was an attempt to breath new life into the game, and it actually worked. Kinda'... WE know what it USED to be like... The poor newbies, though? It's not their fault, they can't be upset or disappointed when how things are post re-balence is all they've had for an experience. They will never get to experience how complicated strategic gameplay could be when using a full set, or the thrill of combat against that super speedy pyro on the battlefield. Really, the polycount set perk abolishment has simply left ALL of us- Veteran, pre-rebalance F2Ps, and players whom have yet to discover TF2... with a reduced experience.
In reality, the truth of the matter...It didn't re-balance anything to be more fair.. It only made the game mechanics shallower. Less to learn, less to understand, less thinking and creative problem solving required to gain the upper-hand. We were all standing waist-high in the "waters of possibility" before, where complicated and smart decision making was rewarded, and it felt truely satisfying when your skill and cunning resulted in victory... post re-balence, though... We're left cold and wet, squeezed together in the kiddy pool trying to find the inventive satisfation we felt before.
Regardless of your skill, status in the community, veteran or fresh out of boot camp... In the long-run, this makes us all suffer.

My hopes though? If the devs are gonna' do something to bring us all back, unite in agreement that "That last update was so F'ING GOOD! They'll never top themselves now!" kind of community harmony... well, It's just my speculation and hope.. but we all know what we need now more than ever- and it's been a long time coming. on... we're almost done...

"The Austrailium War" Update- or - "Saxton's Grey-ve Endeavor" update. Screw the name, it doesn't matter... it's the real meat that counts.
No hats, no misc. wearables, no useless burn-proof diaries a small group of enterprising lads and lasses will hold onto to, simply to sell for huge amounts of currency down the line.

No gimmicks. Just content.

A new official map for each game-mode, carefully crafted to compliment the real star of the show....

Weapons. Not just a couple... 2 or 3, maybe even 4- FOR EACH CLASS. MORE weapons, and more weapons en-mass! Not just class-specific, but multi-class additions- not just multi-class shotguns, but new dynamics An engineer using a powerful, yet slow revolver with very low max ammo as a primary? What's the catch? Well, it fills the primary/secondary slots! For us to be creative, inventive, and enterprising... we first need the devs to step into unique, unfamiliar grounds- and try things that we've never had before...
These new weapons would/are carefully balanced with love to fit-in with the recent re-balance update- long in planning, secretively held close by the lead vampire on the TF2 dev team deep underground in the Valve labs... until... the time to unveil the project comes, and this community's mind is so blown that the resulting fall-out beckons everyone who hears the "bang" to explore the strange, beautiful and terrifying new world we've been forced into.

Really, imagine a time where the "Baby Face's Blaster" isn't a joke anymore, but now has valid reason to brandish it...
All the set perks we've lost, you know the ones that didn't get moved to other weapons? The ones that just straight-up "disappeared"?
They're there in the new weapons, and creating new and unique ways to confront foes on the battlefield in ways we never could before- now with a huge combination of load-outs possible.

Or hell... they could finally try to balance & impliment a 10th class. Pff- hahah nope.avi.

In conclusion to my huge rant that is COMPLETELY tl;dr worthy...

Maybe it's just an old fanboy's hope that I cling onto my loyalty, hopeing the devs have this all planned out, and some day soon we'll all be given a reason to sing great praise to TF2 again.
Or, maybe it's just denial of what we all really know inside. It may be impossible to breath new life into TF2...the devs, the community, we're just plugging holes in an old rotting wooden life-boat with chewing gum despite knowing the inevitable. We're running out of gum- and there is no Duke on the horizon to kick any metaphysical rump. The F2P's have already been dominated, their butts are sore- and even if we avoid drowning, we're all hungry, starting to point fingers to decide who gets cannibalized first.

~~~~~~~~Final Note~~~~~~~
To those of you whom are as interested in the deeper politics involved with TF2's design and mechanics enough to read through all of this, I thank you so very very much. You've shown me so much respect by doing so, and I'm very greatful- Even if you don't respond to the thread or me, I should owe you the very same respect and attention you've given me through all of this. Even when this ship does sink (hopefully not for many many years to come), the Tf2 community as a whole has got to be the greatest, most intelligent, friendly, silliest, talented, note-worthy, and above all else- dedicated group of people I have ever seen- and I'm proud to be part of it with you. Thank you so much! Good evening! <3
Chair. Sep 12, 2013 @ 2:12am 
"One poor choice you made, is not buffing the sydney sleeper to deal headshots, since headshot immunity is gone."

"I believe that Shortstop is now the Pomson 6000 for scout, because of how brokenly unbalanced it is."

(••)╯↷ ┻━┻
Cap Cube (Banned) Sep 12, 2013 @ 2:25am 
Originally posted by Eddie Morton CHφDE:
college worthy essay
that was well written and fun to read.
good job(yes I read all of it)
Delgatto (Banned) Sep 12, 2013 @ 6:31am 
Originally posted by aL! ROYAL_CHAIRFORCE:
"One poor choice you made, is not buffing the sydney sleeper to deal headshots, since headshot immunity is gone."

"I believe that Shortstop is now the Pomson 6000 for scout, because of how brokenly unbalanced it is."

(••)╯↷ ┻━┻

I don't know that that face is supposed to mean, but I think I know the relationship between you and my friend. Well, the shortstop is now OP and the Sydney Sleeper is UP because of the removal of "headshot immnunity". Giving that sydney headshots is the least the TF team could've done I guess.
Woobie :3 Sep 12, 2013 @ 6:47am 
Originally posted by Liam Nesson- Green Arrow:
I don't know that that face is supposed to mean, but I think I know the relationship between you and my friend. Well, the shortstop is now OP and the Sydney Sleeper is UP because of the removal of "headshot immnunity". Giving that sydney headshots is the least the TF team could've done I guess.
The Shortstop isn't OP. It's more of a defensive scattergun now; You attack from medium range, you get to heal more, and the push forces keep you away from doing much damage to an enemy that pushes you. Although the push forces can save you at times, it decreases you offensive capabilities.
If the Sydney Sleeper got headshots, it'd be a direct upgrade. And besides, pre-nerf, the Sydney Sleeper wasn't used much specifically for it's set immunity to headshots. It was used as a support rifle for people who can't aim. People who were metal-rich enough to get the Sydney Sleeper set probably a.) Realized they cannot play Sniper, so they don't. or b.) Can headshot well enough to do better with stock.
Delgatto (Banned) Sep 12, 2013 @ 6:49am 
Originally posted by ^2TFPOT^3Alex Mason R.I.P:
what is the meaning of this post?
Woobie :3 Sep 12, 2013 @ 6:51am 
Originally posted by Liam Nesson- Green Arrow:
Originally posted by ^2TFPOT^3Alex Mason R.I.P:
what is the meaning of this post?
The meaning of life.
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Date Posted: Sep 11, 2013 @ 8:22pm
Posts: 250