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Tundra Boy 3 ก.ค. 2013 @ 5:30pm
The Current State of TF2 items.
For some, the current state of TF2 items is very sad. Disclaimer: I’m not trying to be a butthurt player, and besides I love this game. Still some weapons just seem unused, out of place, just plain ridiculous, or make things too easy.

Back in the beginning of TF2, classes were force to fit within their archetypical skill sets. Snipers had to (and for the most part still do) rely perception and aim to be effective, and had to listen for any spies sneaking up on them. The same goes for spies, who had to (but for the most part no longer have to) rely on stealth, acting, and effective use of cloak to avoid damage, if he wanted to survive.

Nowadays, what do spies do to sneak past enemy lines? They use the deadringer, and they use it quite obviously too. There is a whole range of skill that comes with being a spy, which is totally lost when one uses the dead ringer. You don’t need to worry about damage, and you don’t need to think about bumping into people. The only risk you take is when you have to time your deadringer to a pyro’s airblast. Snipers, rather than listening for decloak sounds, just wear a razorback, which takes the risk out of the class.

The problem I have is that items allow players to move past the most fundamental challenges of these classes or don't fit into the character's archetype at all. Jarate, a grenade that makes players take more damage, is not something a sniper would normally weild. It looks like something that belongs more in the demoman's arsenal. At this point it's more of a gimmick.

Don’t believe me? It’s fine. I’m going to leave you with this video by a man who is a little more cynical about this topic than I am. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3iAAq2cUj4

For those who don’t want to see the whole thing, this is what happens. A spy with good aim, the ambassador, and the dead ringer, goes around and get up to 60 kills in one life, almost all of which is done with the ambassador.

Do you think any items in TF2 are out of place? Feel free to disagree and leave your own opinions on the video or what I have mentioned.
กำลังแสดง 1-15 จาก 36 ความเห็น
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Foxy the Pirate 3 ก.ค. 2013 @ 5:33pm 
I definitely think the Pomson was a horrible idea for an Engineer weapon, it would have worked better on Scout.
anime character name reference 3 ก.ค. 2013 @ 5:37pm 
Who uses the razorback? Anyway, in competitive, dead ringer is a joke.
Supple Nips 3 ก.ค. 2013 @ 5:40pm 
TF2 Gentlemen is awesome. He makes really good points. Sadly, nothing will probably ever change.
DJOkamical 3 ก.ค. 2013 @ 6:18pm 
Honestly, I'm glad to see classes with more diversity. :/
Civilian Tree 3 ก.ค. 2013 @ 6:24pm 
I use normal cloak and gun for spy, also I saw that video. I perfer stock weapons more than the other hard or easy to use things out there. Stock- it has no downsides or upsides.
And after I stopped using Dead Ringer, I find it extremely hard to use and wrothless.
ได้รับการแก้ไขครั้งสุดท้ายโดย Civilian Tree; 3 ก.ค. 2013 @ 6:25pm
This...IS...BACON! 3 ก.ค. 2013 @ 6:41pm 
After seeing the video the OP posted, I might just stop using the Dead Ringer out of shame. It's sad to see one of the frailest classes become so powerful when all he really needs is the ablitity to aim and temporary god-mode.
ได้รับการแก้ไขครั้งสุดท้ายโดย This...IS...BACON!; 3 ก.ค. 2013 @ 6:41pm
Tundra Boy 3 ก.ค. 2013 @ 6:55pm 
These comments are making me happy, I personally have learned to survive with the stock set and while I often find it difficult it is very rewarding. :)
Woobie :3 3 ก.ค. 2013 @ 6:55pm 
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Tundra Boy:
Nowadays, what do spies do to sneak past enemy lines? They use the deadringer, and they use it quite obviously too. There is a whole range of skill that comes with being a spy, which is totally lost when one uses the dead ringer. You don’t need to worry about damage, and you don’t need to think about bumping into people.
If no one reacts to being randomly body blocked and obvious Dead Ringers, they're doing something wrong. On the server I play on, if you fake a Dead Ringer, they're going to take the ammo packs closest to you and hunt you down. Also, Pyros can easily hunt one down, as can Scouts and Snipers w/ Jarate. Even if it wastes the other person's time, it's a lose - lose. It only takes one Pyro or one decent Scout to shut down a Dead Ringer. The problem is people abuse it so much it does take stealth out of it.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Tundra Boy:
Snipers, rather than listening for decloak sounds, just wear a razorback, which takes the risk out of the class.
Most Spies just shoot you. It only takes 1.5 seconds with stock/Enforcer, and the Ambassador take 1 second.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Tundra Boy:
The problem I have is that items allow players to move past the most fundamental challenges of these classes or don't fit into the character's archetype at all. Jarate, a grenade that makes players take more damage, is not something a sniper would normally weild. It looks like something that belongs more in the demoman's arsenal. At this point it's more of a gimmick.
Jarate is a jar. So is Mad Milk. They're in jars. Also, notice that the Sniper is a supposed to be support class. This makes him more supportive.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Tundra Boy:
Don’t believe me? It’s fine. I’m going to leave you with this video by a man who is a little more cynical about this topic than I am. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3iAAq2cUj4

For those who don’t want to see the whole thing, this is what happens. A spy with good aim, the ambassador, and the dead ringer, goes around and get up to 60 kills in one life, almost all of which is done with the ambassador.
One good person doesn't convince me. It requires skill, and the other team has to be bad. Also, it's plr_hightower. It's a joke of a map, really.

Also, like above has said, Dead Ringer and Spies in general become a joke in 6s.
ได้รับการแก้ไขครั้งสุดท้ายโดย Woobie :3; 3 ก.ค. 2013 @ 6:58pm
Supple Nips 3 ก.ค. 2013 @ 6:56pm 
Yeah His video's made me switch to mostly stock loadouts about a month ago. Gameplay and enjoyment have improved because if I die or live, it's because of what I did, not some gimmick a weapon has.
Jingle Pyro 3 ก.ค. 2013 @ 7:03pm 
I welcome variety in classes. It's nice to see how drastically different one person can be with using a particular setup, and someone else using a totally different strategy/loadout being just as effective within the same class.

Variety is the spice of life.
Tundra Boy 3 ก.ค. 2013 @ 7:09pm 
I don't even want to quote woobie he said so much.

1. Exactly, the spies are predictable and obvious with their dead ringing. They use the dead ringer not to make the enemy unsure of whether he is alive or dead, they use it to avoid taking any damage, which takes away all the stealth of the class.

2. Yeah but it's much more fun to stab them :)

3. Yes they are jars, but they are grenades. Not explosives of course, but they are splash effect weapons. They are out of place in the arsenal of a long range class (the milk may be another story). The fact that they are in jars changes nothing.

4. One person wasn't supposed to convince you. There are many spies who can do this. The two I know on youtube are stabby stabby and tf2gentleman. Still, you will find some spies who are very good at dead ringing and it can make that spy incredibly powerful. Either the weapon is used improperly by people who don't know how to be stealthy, or it is abused by people who do.
100% Recycled Awesome 3 ก.ค. 2013 @ 7:12pm 
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Woobie W.O.O.Ber:
Most Spies just shoot you. It only takes 1.5 seconds with stock/Enforcer, and the Ambassador take 1 second.

I don't disagree with the rest of your post except for this:

For every time a spy shoots me, 10 try to backstab me. Even with the razorback on.

Hence, the math suggests to me that the razorback is a better choice.
Jingle Pyro 3 ก.ค. 2013 @ 7:12pm 
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Tundra Boy:
3. Yes they are jars, but they are grenades. Not explosives of course, but they are splash effect weapons. They are out of place in the arsenal of a long range class (the milk may be another story). The fact that they are in jars changes nothing.
Jarate gives the sniper a support weapon, which when combined with the huntsman and bushwacka can turn him into a very effective mid range support class.

Are you saying it's bad that we have more variety and options for how people play the game?
Tundra Boy 3 ก.ค. 2013 @ 7:29pm 
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย {CS} Jingle Pyro:
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Tundra Boy:
3. Yes they are jars, but they are grenades. Not explosives of course, but they are splash effect weapons. They are out of place in the arsenal of a long range class (the milk may be another story). The fact that they are in jars changes nothing.
Jarate gives the sniper a support weapon, which when combined with the huntsman and bushwacka can turn him into a very effective mid range support class.

Are you saying it's bad that we have more variety and options for how people play the game?

No I like being able to mix up my playstyles. Play with big earner and l'etanger to regane cloak really fast or any other combo you can think of. I just think that the jarate is unusual for a class such as sniper. I mean yes you can say it's great in combat, but a lot of the time it's a way to whack spies even faster.

I don't think that this is really the main point of my discussion though. I guess the focus is some of the get out of jail free cards that some classes have.
Tin Foil Hat 3 ก.ค. 2013 @ 7:32pm 
He has his points but hes wrong in soo many areas. Also note this is pub, which is an extremely poor way to show realistic and competitve scenarios.

A good example of these "instant kill" problems are almost entirely Pyro related.

Flare Gun - Spammable, quick reload, swap reload glitch (Swapping while mid reload auto reloads it). Way too rewarding for how easy it is to use.

Axetinguisher - Crits for 195 Damage, kills any class but Heavy in a single hit. Firing speed is arguably far too high for such perks.

Neon Annhilator - Hard counter to extinguished flames, its bad enough that flames are extremely spammable, but in addition to that, they can instantly kill most classes in scenarios that involve water. Water on maps being already extremely rare.

Philogistinator - Reduced damage while MMMPH, Heals to 100% during MMMPH, builds easily.

Valve didnt go about making the Pyro right.

A good way they could of done Pyro would be things like this.

Reserve Air Canister (Secondary)

Doing damage to enemies builds charge, when this charge is full it extends the distance of your flames by half the normal distance.

Things like this would make more sense, critical hits off doing anything is just flat out over kill. This applies to the Splendid Screen Melee, Jarate+Bushwacka, specifically Jarate+Bushwacka giving Snipers far to great of close range abilities, in addition to having the best long range ability.

Any crits aside from Kritzkreig, in my opinion, should be mini-crits at best, and should take time to build up, or have an reasonably long reload/firing speed.

Theres a handful of things that need to be changed to create a better enviroment, someone above mentioned the Pomson, which is another one of those problematic weapons.

Also id like to note, people complaining about the Enforcer as a secondary, but dont complain about the Shotgun. In the video he mentions shotguns damage, which is even higher than the Enforcers and is a secondary that doesnt even require perfectly aimed shots to do damage. I completely agree with him on that point.

Also he talks about stealth being on the downfall, i disagree. All watches are situational, if anything id say the stock is outdated, it has its perk of moving quickly across the map with refueling from ammo packs but aside from that it doesnt have much going for it. You can take paths you couldnt with the Cloak and Dagger, you can avoid more, you can sit around and observe and wait.

The disguise kit is more soo the culprit of this issue. Its mechanics are outdated, everyone spy checks everyone. They need to add in actual abilities like fake shooting, even if it looks like blatant holograms, it would be far more useful than not having it. Right now you can only fake reload/swap weapons and use VCMDS. Its not enough, which is one of the reasons we see more Spies choosing the Deadringer.

Overall theres alot in the video and i already hit people with a wall of text.
ได้รับการแก้ไขครั้งสุดท้ายโดย Tin Foil Hat; 3 ก.ค. 2013 @ 7:41pm
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