Perception Jun 8, 2013 @ 7:52pm
Perception's Mini-Sentry Thread (UPDATE)
NOTICE: This thread is basically not really usefull for discussion of it's original purpose. Basically: TF2 update changed Mini. However, feel free to ♥♥♥♥♥ and moan about the new update, or offer your own opinions.

It turns out that one of the biggest pains in the butt happened to be a bug in the first place.

So those who said that valve wouldn't bother changing it because it's been out for over 2 years: 1 month, 2 days, 900 comments. I'm enjoying my little victories.

All the stuff that I wrote up earlier:
"Originally posted by This...IS...BACON!:
While I DO believe that minis need to be nerfed, I also think that the nerf wouldn't exactly have to be that large in order to make them more manageble. A reduction in health or perhaps a slight increase in hitbox size to make them less impossible to hit at range would probably be all it takes. And props for doing your research, it's refreshing to see a legitimate thread about how OP minis are without it being filled with whiners or elitest jackasses who keep spewing off about how little of a threat it is when it actually IS a legitimate threat."
This is what I'm going for, READ THE ENTIRETY OF THIS POST BEFORE MAKING A COMMENT. IDIOTS WILL BE ASKED TO READ THIS BEFORE POSTING THEN IGNORED. also THE MINISENTRY NEEDS A REWORK TO MAKE IT BETTER SKILL INDEXED, NOT A NERF. Thanks.

So, we all know in our hearts, way deep down that mini-sentries are unbalanced. But just how bad is it, and why should they be changed and reworked?
My friend Banana Bag and I are here to give some insight.
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Let's list some facts about these kids shall we? So you don't think I'm just pulling this out of my butt.
1. Their size - Mini-Sentries are incredibly small, and can sit right around a corner waiting for you to run past, and turning quickly to check that corner yields an eye-level view of nothing. The hitboxes on them are smaller as well, which makes them harder to hit at range. Which brings me to my next point.

2. The Range- Mini-Sentries have the SAME RANGE as a level 1 sentry (1100 HU). I refer you to the first part of a Mini-Sentries name which is MINI. Couple the range of a mini-sentry with the size of it, and you have something pretty darn hard to win against at long distances. Also, an interesting little tidbit, Sentries don't suffer from damage falloff like your average weapon, the only other weapons being exempt from this are Sniper Rifles and the Huntsman. Also, the range of the Mini-Sentry Appears slightly less than it actually is. Banana Bag was kind enough to take a beating from Mini-Sentries and Sentry Guns alike to test this out.

3. The Fire Rate and Damage - Mini-Sentries fire 50% percent faster than a Level 1 Sentry. This is drawn back by the fact that their damage is only 8 per bullet instead of 16. However, this means that Mini-Sentries can dish out 48 damage per second to any class at the same range of a Level 1 Sentry, which is 75% of its level 1 counterpart (64).

4. Health - Minis have 100 base health, 2/3s of a Level 1 Sentry. This might be the only thing that shouldn't change, and if it does it should only go to the minimum of 80 health.
5. The Accuracy – Mini-Sentries have 100% accuracy, or very near that. They don’t miss a Soldier rocket jumping at maximum speed once. This means that while you MIGHT be able to hit the Mini-Sentry 1 every 5 bullets as heavy, every 5/5 bullets will hit you directly. It’s like having a free aimbotting Heavy on your team, or second one if you happen to be playing on valve servers.
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TLDR warning: This is just further information and a test a friend of mine (Banana Bag) and I did.

Alright, so let's put points 1 through 5 together for a little scenario, shall we?
Imagine you are heavy weapons guy, crushing tiny men left and right on Koth_Lakeside. You kill a gunslinging Engineer, and to celebrate you stop to eat your sandwich and heal completely before stepping onto the point. Little do you know that the Engineer you just killed has set up a mini-sentry just far enough away from the point to harass you. So, you pull out your Minigun and start firing away at the Mini-Sentry. However, the Sentry is small enough to avoid your bullets due to the weapon spread at that range. So, the sentry, taking approximately 5-7 damage per bullet, locks on to you and proceeds to nail you for 48 damage per second. As a heavy, this means you will die in 6 and 2/3s of second from the first shot. You manage to take it out, surviving with just barely more than 90 health.
Now, Let’s take the same scenario with a sentry gun, dealing 64 damage per second with about twice the hitbox size. You survive with just under half health.
By the way, the only thing made up in the two previous scenarios was the map, the control point, and killing the engineer. My friend and I went into Itemtest and tried this for ourselves 10 times each and these numbers are about the average of all our experimentation.
End of TLDR warning.
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Now, let’s get on to the final few points that I have on Mini-Sentries
6. The Build Time – A Mini-Sentry builds in 2.5 seconds, and cannot be helped by its Engineer. If the Mini-Sentry is already built, then the reconstruct time is only .625 seconds.

7. The Health Regeneration - When building Mini-Sentries regenerate health, which makes killing them that much harder. I don't have exact numbers on this, but it is enough to keep the minisentry operational under fire.

8. The Knock Back - Mini-Sentries have knockback like you wouldn't believe, most of this due to the fact that they fire faster than your average Sentry Gun. This makes them ridiculously powerful when holding someone off. Or when picking off people flying through the air.

9. The Cost – Mini-Sentries cost 100 metal to build, which is less than the Sentry Gun at 130. This allows an Engineer to place a Mini-Sentry, get a few kills with until the Mini is destroyed, and then set up another. While that Mini-Sentry is getting kills, the Engineer runs to the bodies of nearby players and picks up MORE metal, allowing him to repeat this process indefinitely. Alternately, an Engineer can camp around a medium size ammo kit, which drops exactly 100 metal, for an infinite source of mini-sentries.

10. The Engineer – Yes, this guy right here. The dude that places down that miniature dispenser of death, is also a part of the Mini-Sentries strength. This guy can set up the Mini-Sentry and then proceed to pelt you with 90 damage per shot every .6 seconds, dealing 324 damage in 3.6 seconds if every shot lands. Even if his shots don’t land, after 2.5 seconds his Mini-Sentry will be fully built and also shooting at you adding another 48 damage per second to that. There are 2 targets, which will you take out, and can you do it before the other kills you?
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“Alrighty then” – Engineer
To quote our friend, “Alrighty then”, let’s move on to the next part of our breakdown. The following is a table of class, health, average DPR (Damage Per Round) of primaries at maximum Mini-Sentry range, and time it takes to get killed by the Mini-Sentry

Class: Scout
Health: 125
DPR: 3-10
KBT: 2.6 Seconds

Class: Soldier
Health: 200
DPR: 90-112 on Direct Impact
KBT: 4.2 Seconds

Class: Pyro
Health: 175
DPR: 0 (Flamethrower doesn't have enough range)
KBT: 3.6 Seconds

Class: Demo
Health: 175
DPR: 80-123
KBT: 4.2 seconds

Class: Heavy
Health: 300
DPR: 5-7
KBT: 6.25 seconds

Class: Engineer
Health: 125
DPR: 5-7
KBT: 2.6 seconds

Class: Medic
Health: 150
DPR: None.
KBT: 3.1 seconds

Class: Sniper
Health: 150
DPR: 45-150 Depending on charge rate
KBT: 2.6 seconds

Class: Spy
Health: 125
DPR: Spies won't be shooting at a Mini-Sentry. They'll be sapping it.
KBT: 2.6 seconds

Spies disguise in approximately 2 seconds, which means killing an Engineer within the radius of a Mini-Sentry will cause you almost guaranteed death unless you cloak or sap the Mini-Sentry right after you backstab the Engineer.
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So, we’ve gone over basically every aspect of the Mini-Sentry, and it looks like the only classes that are really suited to take out a Mini-Sentry are Soldier, Sniper, and Spy.
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Well, that’s really all I have right now, over 1,000 words on why Mini-Sentries can be really powerful. I tried extremely hard to not be biased and present the facts. Also, all of this I checked myself by hand and/or used various tf2 wiki sources. If you have anything to add feel free to tell me.
Thanks, don’t forget to comment in order to sign and support this, or even to not sign and unsupport this. If you do either, feel free to give your reasons why. Hopefully Valve will see this, or we can get this to them somehow so they will patch the Mini-Sentry.
A special thank you to Banana Bag for helping me out with this tonight.
Take Care,
Perception

EDIT 1: Added in Knockback and Health Regeneration to the Mini-Sentry, as this is what causes a large amount of complaints.
EDIT 2: As many people have started to not read the entirety of this post, I'm going to add in a section at the bottom for what people have suggested as a nerf to the gun. I personally am not saying that the Mini-Sentry should be made unusable, but in it's current state it can overpower multiple people at any given time with the Engineer at it's side.
Last edited by Perception; Jul 10, 2013 @ 3:41pm
Showing 1-15 of 926 comments
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Buck Nasty Jun 8, 2013 @ 7:54pm 
its nerfed right now, 100% damage reduction =P
Perception Jun 8, 2013 @ 7:54pm 
Haha, :P don't we all wish.
{BPPS} Man in a banana bag Jun 8, 2013 @ 7:56pm 
I support this.
{JSA}OFFICERMARIO Jun 8, 2013 @ 7:56pm 
I do not support this.
Perception Jun 8, 2013 @ 7:57pm 
Originally posted by {JSA}OFFICERMARIO:
I do not support this.
Any reasons why? Just curious.
{JSA}OFFICERMARIO Jun 8, 2013 @ 7:58pm 
I just do not see any real reason to nerf the gunslinger. Never had a problem with it before other than it being distracting.
Perception Jun 8, 2013 @ 8:01pm 
Originally posted by {JSA}OFFICERMARIO:
I just do not see any real reason to nerf the gunslinger. Never had a problem with it before other than it being distracting.
Alrighty, thanks for your opinion then. I personally have yet to go a day without a mini-sentry destroying an entire team. And the gunslinger wouldn't get nerfed at all, just the gun.
Buck Nasty Jun 8, 2013 @ 8:05pm 
i easily destroy minis then the engie as demo and i use the mini to chip away and enemies at the early stages of a match then switch to a wrench. i dont really think minis are all that powerful
Sir Veighsuh, the inebriated (Banned) Jun 8, 2013 @ 8:10pm 
yea and then we should nerf spy cause he kills people in the back. and sniper cause he kills people from far away. and scout cause hes too fast. and heavy cause he has too much health. and pyro cause he burns things. etc
ConcernedMom91 (Banned) Jun 8, 2013 @ 8:11pm 
Originally posted by #GameUI_Playername:
yea and then we should nerf spy cause he kills people in the back. and sniper cause he kills people from far away. and scout cause hes too fast. and heavy cause he has too much health. and pyro cause he burns things. etc
you forgot the gibus
gibus is op as ♥♥♥♥
λ.w.t1998 Jun 8, 2013 @ 8:16pm 
The Gunslinger has been in TF2 since the Engineer update which was in 2010. If it was not nerfed for 2 years, why would it be nerfed now? I personally do not think it should be nerfed because it's pretty easy to destroy it. I don't find it annoying because I never have problems with it.
ronnie11 Jun 8, 2013 @ 8:23pm 
The gunslinger can be easily destroyed, I instead believe the holy mackeral should be nerfed, I get killed by those damn fish every time I play control point
Perception Jun 8, 2013 @ 8:24pm 
Originally posted by #GameUI_Playername:
yea and then we should nerf spy cause he kills people in the back. and sniper cause he kills people from far away. and scout cause hes too fast. and heavy cause he has too much health. and pyro cause he burns things. etc
Haha, it's funny because that's the point of all of those classes. What's the point of Engineer? To provide support for his team through the use of defensive structures. I don't now about you, but most gunslinger engineers don't exactly help the team, but more themselves.
Sir Veighsuh, the inebriated (Banned) Jun 8, 2013 @ 8:32pm 
if funslingers still provide a distraction for the opposition and deter them from the objective with their disposable area denial mini sentries, how is that not helping their team? engineer has more options than to stay backed up into a corner a be a big obvious target for spies. and if from time to time they dont throw down a dispenser or tele, so what? not every engineer/scout/spy/demo/ etc is uber 1337 h4x and a total master of the class and taking that out on 1 weapon isn't justified
TwoTonHammer Jun 8, 2013 @ 8:34pm 
Really don't see why it needs a nerf. If a player is capable enough they can just find the little guy and destroy it. Then again I really don't care.
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Date Posted: Jun 8, 2013 @ 7:52pm
Posts: 926