Team Fortress 2 > Általános témák > Téma részletei
|Gent| Mc Mentlegen 2013. febr. 8. @ du. 3:01
consequences
Alright, so some guy traded me and asked me if I'd trade my strange jarate for a SF huntdman. When i said yes (I know that would be morally wrong (I usually don't do something like that, even undo trades when my trading partner doesn't like the stuff he got), however, that was an offer I just couldn't refuse. Also, i wanted to see if he'd really do it, cause I know he's an experienced trader.), he told me he'd report me for scamming. Now i know that i didn't break the rules, however, are all the reports being checked, or do they sometimes just get eg a temporary ban? What are the possible consequences?

-Edit: This might turn into a discussion about capitalism in the near future :D

-Edit: It won't
Legutóbb szerkesztette: |Gent| Mc Mentlegen; 2013. febr. 8. @ du. 3:34
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Rick 2013. febr. 8. @ du. 3:05 
If all that really happened was he asked if he could trade you his strange festive huntsman for your strange jarate and you said yes then you did nothing wrong. You will not be punished either.
|Gent| Mc Mentlegen 2013. febr. 8. @ du. 3:06 
So you are sure there is no automated temporary ban or smth similar? And yes, everything happened exactly as I described it
Octavia 2013. febr. 8. @ du. 3:07 
Sharking is not scamming. Bans are not handed out lightly, but considering how abusing the lack of intelligence of certain players is not actually an infringement of the rules, well, you'll be perfectly fine; at worst, Valve would make a mistake and you would have easy grounds to contest and appeal the ban.

Temporary bans, and bans in general, are not handed out automatically; each case is looked into before the ban is given, so there's very little risk of you getting one. The only exception would probably be a Valve Anti-Cheat ban, which you'd get by using a hacking program; this is not the case here, so there's no worries.

Possible consequences are essentially nonexistent, unless someone makes a mistake; I doubt they will, but if they do, as I said before, it should be relatively easy to straighten out. Also, it's only morally wrong if it directly violates your morals; depending on who you ask, in particular a capitalist, taking advantage of someone within the boundaries of the law is completely justified morally, and not doing so could even be seen as being 'wrong', in terms of moral. Although that's another subject for another thread and section entirely.
Rick 2013. febr. 8. @ du. 3:11 
Trades like these happen every day sadly where someone trades something and discovers that it was worth a lot more street value. They ask for a refund and when they don't get it they throw a tantrum.

Here is a few official statements from steam regarding their trading policy.

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=9958-MJDG-3003
Legutóbb szerkesztette: Rick; 2013. febr. 8. @ du. 3:12
|Gent| Mc Mentlegen 2013. febr. 8. @ du. 3:11 
good, I'm relieved now.

Octavia eredeti hozzászólása:
Also, it's only morally wrong if it directly violates your morals; depending on who you ask, in particular a capitalist, taking advantage of someone within the boundaries of the law is completely justified morally, and not doing so could even be seen as being 'wrong', in terms of moral. Although that's another subject for another thread and section entirely.

Well, we can turn this thread into a discussion about capitalism.
Octavia 2013. febr. 8. @ du. 3:17 
Gent mc mentlegen eredeti hozzászólása:
Well, we can turn this thread into a discussion about capitalism.

We could, but it's relatively pointless to do so; some people are going to take a moral high-ground, which is justifiable, and others are going to take a capitalistic high-ground, which is also justifiable. Capitalism is justifiable in this case because it's not actually ruining lives and it isn't trampling on the rights of anyone, especially in a video game; real life would be another story, but that's not the place foe a thread like this.

I just see it this way; if I can turn a profit by trading a weapon for a Scrap, then I'm going to do so. If someone offered me an Unusual for three Refined, I'd take it and not feel bad about it; if someone us going to be hasty and stupid, then someone else is going to take advantage of them, and I can't think of any reason as to why it shouldn't be me.
|Gent| Mc Mentlegen 2013. febr. 8. @ du. 3:24 
Octavia eredeti hozzászólása:
I just see it this way; if I can turn a profit by trading a weapon for a Scrap, then I'm going to do so. If someone offered me an Unusual for three Refined, I'd take it and not feel bad about it; if someone us going to be hasty and stupid, then someone else is going to take advantage of them, and I can't think of any reason as to why it shouldn't be me.

Well, usually, when I see a noob wanting to trade his first hat for a few weapons, I warn him (ok, I mainly do so because i sold my first hat for 3 hats), hoping that he'll learn and not get exploited anyway. However, I want to trade till I've "turned" my jarate into an unusuall, so a SF huntsman would have come in handy.
Octavia 2013. febr. 8. @ du. 3:34 
Gent mc mentlegen eredeti hozzászólása:
Well, usually, when I see a noob wanting to trade his first hat for a few weapons, I warn him (ok, I mainly do so because i sold my first hat for 3 hats), hoping that he'll learn and not get exploited anyway. However, I want to trade till I've "turned" my jarate into an unusuall, so a SF huntsman would have come in handy.

That's very admirable of you, but I don't see the point; he's getting what he wants, and I get what I want. Your logic is correct based on certain moral standards, but I don't believe it is economically, assuming this game practices a free-market form of capitalism; if someone wants to sell an item for below the market value, then so be it. I'm not going to stop them, and I'm while I don't trade much, if I can trade for a profit then I will; taking advantage of people who are incredibly hasty or impatient is perfectly fine by me, especially since most wouldn't hesitate to do so to you, if the situation was reversed.
|Gent| Mc Mentlegen 2013. febr. 8. @ du. 3:43 
Octavia eredeti hozzászólása:
Gent mc mentlegen eredeti hozzászólása:
Well, usually, when I see a noob wanting to trade his first hat for a few weapons, I warn him (ok, I mainly do so because i sold my first hat for 3 hats), hoping that he'll learn and not get exploited anyway. However, I want to trade till I've "turned" my jarate into an unusuall, so a SF huntsman would have come in handy.

That's very admirable of you, but I don't see the point; he's getting what he wants, and I get what I want. Your logic is correct based on certain moral standards, but I don't believe it is economically, assuming this game practices a free-market form of capitalism; if someone wants to sell an item for below the market value, then so be it. I'm not going to stop them, and I'm while I don't trade much, if I can trade for a profit then I will; taking advantage of people who are incredibly hasty or impatient is perfectly fine by me, especially since most wouldn't hesitate to do so to you, if the situation was reversed.

I agree with you, but this doesn't apply to noobs. They aren't hasty or stupid, they just want to get the weapons they like. They don't know about the whole trading community, and they think that a few weaps for a purely cosmetic item is enough. I sure was happy when i got 3 weapons i wanted for a hat i didn't like (ol' geezer). however, I realized pretty soon, how bad that trade had been, and it stil bugs me. I don't want someones first tf2 trading experience to be a failiure.
Octavia 2013. febr. 8. @ du. 3:48 
They are hasty because they don't look up what an item is worth before they trade it, which is silly. I mean really, trading something away that you have no idea of the value of is acting in haste; it may be a 'failure', but if people weren't so obsessed with cosmetics then it wouldn't matter. I put a very low value on hats because I don't care about them, but if someone else does, I'll trade for the value they put on it, assuming it's competitive, and buy things I want with it; if someone doesn't know the competitive value of an item, that's their fault.

They're both impatient and hasty if they make a trade before they know the value of items, no matter the game they play; Team Fortress 2 is no exception.
|Gent| Mc Mentlegen 2013. febr. 8. @ du. 3:53 
Octavia eredeti hozzászólása:
They are hasty because they don't look up what an item is worth before they trade it, which is silly. I mean really, trading something away that you have no idea of the value of is acting in haste; it may be a 'failure', but if people weren't so obsessed with cosmetics then it wouldn't matter. I put a very low value on hats because I don't care about them, but if someone else does, I'll trade for the value they put on it, assuming it's competitive, and buy things I want with it; if someone doesn't know the competitive value of an item, that's their fault.

They're both impatient and hasty if they make a trade before they know the value of items, no matter the game they play; Team Fortress 2 is no exception.

My point is, noobs don't know about tf2 trading, they don't know about spreadsheet and stuff. They measure an items worth by it's usefulness. If they think a weapon is good, they trade 2 other weapons for it. I only knew that hats were rare when i got my first one, so i thought it was worth 3 weapons, even more than a good weapon. Players who haven't played a game with a similar trading community before, don't expect something like that, that's not their fault.
Legutóbb szerkesztette: |Gent| Mc Mentlegen; 2013. febr. 8. @ du. 3:53
Octavia 2013. febr. 8. @ du. 4:09 
Gent mc mentlegen eredeti hozzászólása:
Players who haven't played a game with a similar trading community before, don't expect something like that, that's not their fault.

In a game with any sort of trading, anyone who has any sense of logic will realize that items probably have a defined value, and if they choose to measure an item by the usefulness it has to them, then basic common sense dictates that, sooner or later, they'll make a trade that isn't 'profitable', according to others.

In any sort of trade, be it in a game or the real world, people have to make an informed decision; I doubt you buy a bag of chips for twenty dollars, and if you did, who's at fault? You, since you make an uninformed decision, not the seller, who simply took advantage of the situation; I mean really, you don't need to know about the spreadsheet to know how to use Google. "Team Fortress 2 Trading" gives the Wiki page, along with several sites about Team Fortress 2 trading, such as the Outpost and Trading Post; if a newbie doesn't choose to use Google or the forums, which they know exist, then they're being hasty, and as such they have no excuse for lack of knowledge.
|Gent| Mc Mentlegen 2013. febr. 8. @ du. 4:15 
Octavia eredeti hozzászólása:
if a newbie doesn't choose to use Google or the forums, which they know exist, then they're being hasty, and as such they have no excuse for lack of knowledge.

As i said, noobs often don't expect the trading system to be this complicated. I've played online games in which item's worth was dictated by their usefulness. It's a logical, definite system, since the stats can be found on any wiki. Having to look up an items worth on the internet was a completely new concept to me.
Octavia 2013. febr. 8. @ du. 4:27 
Most games I play online had rather skewered usefulness to worth ratios, particularly because some items were useful, but nobody took the time to earn them, while others were very useful, but in plentiful supply. Knowledge is power, and if you don't at least ask around before trading, then I fail to see how one should expect to get a fair price.

In most online games cosmetics tend to be fairly expensive as well, due to how players enjoy looking good; in particular, rare cosmetics have a huge value, but are essentially worthless. I mean really, unless a game has no cosmetics, which would be somewhat strange. I mean, simply look at real life; many items are purely cosmetic, sold as cosmetics and have no practical use, but fetch inflated prices, a concept somewhat similar to hats in Team Fortress 2.
Champion of Hyrule 2013. febr. 8. @ du. 5:44 
I'd have to agree with Gent on this one. While I see your point that cosmetic items are generally priced higher in many games (and it's true), many of the players in those games tend to focus more on the "essentials" rather than the "extras," since the extras are so expensive, virtually. In MMORPGs such as RS, for example, items are generally kept for their usefulness rather than their cosmetic value. For many new TF2 players, they just see a rifle that has stat bonuses and a hat that doesn't, and judge based on their knowledge from those other games that the rifle is worth more than the hat. Also, those other games usually have a monetary system (with RotMG and a few others being exceptions), and without that as a guide, new players don't get a practical sense of the relative worth of an item.

I also see your point in getting a profit off of a player, as long as the other person is happy with the trade. But I'd rather profit from a trade with a knowledgeable, experienced player who knows what he's doing than profit from a trade with a new player who has no point of reference to the TF2 trading system, and who would feel awful about the trade a few days later. I'd inform them before they make a bad trade. So if they don't want the "useless" hat, fine -- I just think it's better to give them a fair price for it
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