How much use do you get out of the 'passive' secondary items?

[Hazza the Fox]

I'm talking things like the Razorback, Buff Banner, and the like. Things that don't attack (the Demo Shields being an obvious exception, but provide some kind of constant 'passive' bonus.

Do you get a lot of use out of them (despite them being deliberately more circumstantial)?
Or do you opt to use a secondary weapon instead?
Or, do you not use secondaries anyway, thus the passive items can only be a bonus?

[DeadFish]

passives are for better use of your main weapon or for survival. the bannars are for team players and people who need a little bonus once in a while.as far as the back sheilds..theyre for survival, that extra bit of health or spy begone is really benificial. (just my opinion )

[Sentient_Toaster]

Er, banners aren't passive. They're no benefit (and worse than stock, since you're missing a quite reliable hitscan weapon...) except when you're actually deploying a charge, and its possible to choose a bad time to make use of it.

[Woobie :3]

Banners are not passive. A passive weapon would have it's effect constantly being in use, so the Razorback is a good example.
As a Soldier, I love rocket jumping (even if I'm not STAR_ level) and never pull out my shotgun anyways, I make good use of the Gunboats. Chargin' Targe vulnerabilities are annoying (as my only experience is from trying to kill one) when you use explosives. If you're a Pyro, Axtinguishing them isn't hard, nor is just keeping them a meter from you while toasting them. From what I've seen, Razorback is okay if you like playing Sniper in a crowd and there are a bunch of Spies. Darwin's Danger Shield isn't too useful, but you could survive a sticky (if only the Darwin's Danger Shield gave you an extra 26 health, then you could survive a quick scope headshot or a fully charged bodyshot). Cozy Camper I've never seen in action, but it might be good against flare pyros.

[Hazza the Fox]

Lol- yeah, I knew 'passive' is shakey definition, hence why I '-'d the word (as really, the only truly persistently passive items are Darwin's Danger Shield and the Cosy Camper).

For me; Hate em. Their bonuses don't really seem that useful to me, especially compared to the fact that with the secondary guns give me the best anti-scout, anti-airblaster and anti-sticky defense.

The banners are clearly good- problem is it's so rare that soldiers build up the rage meter and pull off the right moment to blow the horn. For every time this has happened I've seen about 5 combo-ubers. (or like, 50 plain ubers)!

The Sniper's Razorback is actually the only item I'd say is outright bad. The problem with it is that it only works if the enemy spy doesn't know how easy it is to kill snipers with their revolver!
Darwin's Shiled I think is only useful for snipers who prefer the Sydney Sleeper to the stock rifle, and have the complete set to get the anti-headshot bonus.

[A Very Festive Scarecrow]

Gunboats are good for rocket jumping soldiers, I'm pretty sure every soldier likes them in some way. Man treads are just for screwing around. I don't know anyone who uses them seriously or for the knock back reduction.

[Woobie :3]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Hazza the Fox:

Lol- yeah, I knew 'passive' is shakey definition, hence why I '-'d the word (as really, the only truly persistently passive items are Darwin's Danger Shield and the Cosy Camper).

For me; Hate em. Their bonuses don't really seem that useful to me, especially compared to the fact that with the secondary guns give me the best anti-scout, anti-airblaster and anti-sticky defense.

The banners are clearly good- problem is it's so rare that soldiers build up the rage meter and pull off the right moment to blow the horn. For every time this has happened I've seen about 5 combo-ubers. (or like, 50 plain ubers)!

The Sniper's Razorback is actually the only item I'd say is outright bad. The problem with it is that it only works if the enemy spy doesn't know how easy it is to kill snipers with their revolver!
Darwin's Shiled I think is only useful for snipers who prefer the Sydney Sleeper to the stock rifle, and have the complete set to get the anti-headshot bonus.

I'd define passive as a weapon that provides their buffs constantly/you do not have to activate it yourself. The Razorback can be useful if you are in a crowd or next to a sentry, as a Spy does not have enough time to shoot you down without revealing himself.

[Pizza hut in the garage]

I honestly don't find passive items really useful, the only passive item that has helped me every time I use it are the Gunboats. I mostly like the passive effect on some of the polycount sets more than the secondary items.

[Woobie :3]

How about secondary weapons that give you a passive boost but can still be used un-passively, and we talk about only the passive effect? (for example, the +15 health from the Pocket Pistol)

[KingofMemes69]

This probably doesn't count because it isn't a secondary weapon, but the Medieval set for Medic. It's very helpful, and you don't have to give up too much to use it.

[Hazza the Fox]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย W.O.O.B.ie:

How about secondary weapons that give you a passive boost but can still be used un-passively, and we talk about only the passive effect? (for example, the +15 health from the Pocket Pistol)

Nah, I'd still categorize it as a weapon; I was thinking of items that render you unable to attack with that slot (so the Razorback counts, but the Chargin' Targe doesn't).

[Hazza the Fox]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย W.O.O.B.ie:

The Razorback can be useful if you are in a crowd or next to a sentry, as a Spy does not have enough time to shoot you down without revealing himself.

Definitely true; though I find most snipers pick spots a bit away from teammates due to practical line-of-sight issues of being near crowds with the scope, so these situations are a bit rare except in areas open to both sides (or CTF!)

[Octavia]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Hazza the Fox:

Nah, I'd still categorize it as a weapon; I was thinking of items that render you unable to attack with that slot (so the Razorback counts, but the Chargin' Targe doesn't).

Not trying to nitpick here, but by that definition of 'passive' puts in a lot of weapons that are arguably active; for example, Mad Milk and Jarate both restrict your ability to deal damage by replacing your secondary, similar to the Buff Banner, while also having the same sort of 'limited use' as the Buff Banner, but with a different method of deployment: cool-downs. If your definition of a weapon means it can be used in some way, shape or form actively, then every Banner also counts because you manually need to sound off the horn and activate the effect; if it's solely in a non-directly offensive manner, then I suppose it would work, but the Chargin' Targe is mostly passive with the Charge effect being indirectly attached because the Chargin' Target doesn't actually need to be 'active', as in your current weapon, to use it. The actual act of Charging is active, but the ability to charge is 'passive'.

Now, I'm not saying Mad Milk and Jarate are 'passive', but it's just an iffy term; personally, I consider a weapon passive when the effects apply without needing to have the item as my current weapon. Many weapons, such as the Reserve Shooter or Fists of Steel, have passive effects despite being active weapons, and the only completely passive items, by my definition, are the Gunboats, Mantreads, Razorback, Darwin's Danger Shield and Cozy Camper, if my memory is correct. Considering how a lot of items could at least be partially lumped into passive, due to various bonuses being given without actually using them directly, it's really difficult to put a specific set of boundaries on what a passive item is.

In any case, I like passive items; the Buff Banner, or any of the variants, are some of my favorite items to use. I find it makes playing those classes much more challenging since you're forced to rely on more limited means to deal damage, although they generally aren't the most optimal set of weapons to use, I don't play on a competitive team so I don't care about that; although I don't enjoy Darwin's Danger Shield, Razorback or the Cozy Camper much, mainly because I find their effects very lacking compared to Jarate. Although the Cozy Camper is quite nice to get used to aiming without scope-jumps and practice learning hit-boxes in an actual game, it's still not as supportive as the Jarate, which I imagine is why I have such an infatuation with the Banners; it's a team-support item, and it's an incredible feeling when a truly effective push happens with one, even if it takes a lot of effort to have one happen successfully.

[Healbot]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Hazza the Fox:

I'm talking things like the Razorback, Buff Banner, and the like. Things that don't attack (the Demo Shields being an obvious exception, but provide some kind of constant 'passive' bonus.

Do you get a lot of use out of them (despite them being deliberately more circumstantial)?
Or do you opt to use a secondary weapon instead?
Or, do you not use secondaries anyway, thus the passive items can only be a bonus?

For me, most passive stuff suck. The only thing I find useful is the chargin' targe, which I use sometimes when I don't need to use stickies and then there is the razorback. But sometimes the razorback suck as well, that pretty much depends on the situation. If you're camping from far away where and there isn't too much spies around it's pretty effective. If you're in a position where it's easy for spies to get in, it's not effective at all. The spies will then kill you with the revolver instead of the knife...

So the only passive stuff that I actually use often is the chargin' targe...

[Woobie :3]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Red:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Leviathan the classy pyro:

as far as the back sheilds..theyre for survival, that extra bit of health or spy begone is really benificial. (just my opinion )

Not with me around. Shoot two times, dead.

It works better if the Sniper is lumped in with his teammates, but most Snipers prefer far away sniping spots.

[Healbot]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย W.O.O.B.ie:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Red:

Not with me around. Shoot two times, dead.

It works better if the Sniper is lumped in with his teammates, but most Snipers prefer far away sniping spots.

That's just because there's a huge chance of getting hit by a freaking rocket launcher if you're not sniping from far away...