Ramblings of a Drunken, Bomb Hurling Scottsman

[Carbon Corgi]

Of the 3 nerfs that came with the Love and War update, the most controversial seemed to be that of the Stickybomb Launcher, and it was controversial for a good reason. THe nerf they did to it made near worthless to offensive teams. After good old valve retracted the nerf, alot of people called for the nerf to be brought back, but their complaints were more "Im buthurt cause the bane of my existance is viable. Seriously, it does damage, whats more op than that!?". Not to say that the Stickybomb launcher isnt op, just their arguments are often half @ssed and completely disregard any limitations he has. Sorry I got sidetracked, mainly in this post I'm going to be discussing the play style of using sticky bombs offensively, also known as "Sticky spam". I main this kind of Demo and am going to talk about the ups and downs that I personally have found playing both using and facing this playstyle.
First, the love and war updates damage ramp up actually wasnt something new. The Stickybomb launcher without the nerf still has a bit of variance in damage based on the time of detonation. When given time before detonation, it does around 100-120 damage, and when imediatly detonated as soon as possible, it does from 60-70. WHen the nerf was in effect, it did around 30 when spammed (I Kid you not). I might not be 100% correct with these numbers, but it's what I've personally found when spending time in the class. Now the 60-70 might seem way lower than normal, that is because it takes so little time for it to scale up from that, you have to literally be holding right click and air detonat for the bomb to get that low damage. Give it a small amount of time before detonating, it usualy does 80-90. It actualy plays somewhat similarly to the Soldier's rocket launcher. Now that we have numbers outa da way, lets see how to play as and against this.
When talking about play around this weapon, I like to think of the Stickybomb launcher like a spear or halberd. You have a sweeetspot range (Where the stickybombs end up). Once you get past that sweetspot and into close range, its incredibly easy to play around, but getting past that sweetspot is utter hell. Whether spammed or used as traps, the Stickybomb launcher is the king of area denial. Running straight through this range is suicide unless you can get him to waste his clip, in which case you can use his reload time to close the distance, but the best bet is usualy to to find a flanking route.Once you close that distance however, that's when the (Sticky using) Demo is easiest to handle. The detonation times and Demo's complete lack of Histscan weapons make it harder for him to land hits when given a suprise rushdown. Plus with his lower movement speed and the high cost of sticky jumping, escape is tough. as for specific counters
Spy can cloak to close the distance more easily, then stab im in the but. Even if he turns around before you can do so, the revolver does suprisingly sufficient damage to the demo (If your good with the Amby, then two shots is all you need) plus the dead ringer can be used as an emergency getaway if needed. Soldiers and Demos are on pretty even ground when at mid-range, but a rocket jump or two and you get at the forementioned weakspot of the Demo's range. Two close range rockets can take out the demo very quickly, faster than the close range spamming would. Pyros can airblast, making the path safer for both himself and his teamates. However, the best counter (IMO) to sticky spamming demo is a good Scout. The darn guys are already hard enough to hit with something that fires normally, but for a Demo, its hard to even get a hit on the guy. Plus If your good at weapon heckling, you can force the demo to waste all his ammo, giving you time to get close enough to meatshot him. Plus you have a few different tools to deal with his sweatspot range, such as the Bonk, Sandman, Soda Popper, etc.
Even though I do main this playstyle, I will admit it can be a bit OP, but it has importance to the game. Us Sticky spammers keep Engineers from being overpowered, add area denial that isnt sentries, give demo a role in competitive on offensive teams, etc. Rather than make the thing do next to no damage, I instead think that they should lower the clip size. 8 is an INSANE amount of ammo, and lowering that clip size (Maybe to 6-4 max clip) would force us to think more. ALot of the time when we shoot despite no enemy being in sight, its cause we're trying to second guess when the enemy tries to rush us down. By Lowering the clip size, we would half to be more careful in our predictions, and would be easier to force us to waste our clip. But it would still be viable, just would take more skill.
As for why I wrote this crap? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNeikvoqQ-s

[Chara]

A genuine tl;dr. Would you mind giving me a short version?

[Fumo Bnnuy n Frends]

tl:dr op explains how the sticky nerf from the love and war update
how it made it less of an offese weapon and is defending it

[Fumo Bnnuy n Frends]

also now that i think about it IT IS made more for offense which is why valve made the scottish resistance for a more defensive sticky launcher
although i wouldnt mind they made the clip shorter to about 6 shots
alittle nerf since 8 can pretty much kill any class in 2 shots, so you kill 4 players if there are anyone near them say a medic, about 6 so thats half the team or more depending on the number of players
so with 6 you can only kill about 2, 3 max if you do it right
this is not including random crits
since they can pretty much then 1 shot any enemy
so if you were to say get 3 of the 8 stickies to be random crits, you can kill about 8 or even 9 people

[Woobie :3]

Originally posted by Edd the Wrangler Team Engie!:

A genuine tl;dr. Would you mind giving me a short version?

TL;DR:
(intro)
Talks about sticky spam, and the nerf in the Love and War update.
Some numbers about the damage of the sticky (120 - 100 if you get a solid detonation and wait a little bit, 60 - 70 if you do an immediate detonation), and how it was during the nerf (~30 damage).
(SL use)
To play with the SL, you gotta find a sweetspot, around medium range. The Demoman is very powerful when he has control of this sweetspot, since the SL has great area denial and damage. However, if he gets flanked, then the SL's detonation speed and the Demo's lack of hitscan weapons leaves him vulnerable. His slightly slow walking speed doesn't help, and sticky jumps require an armed sticky and the Demo has to take a big hit.
(class specifics)
A Spy has a decent chance beacuse the cloak allows him to get past that sweetspot, and the Revolver is usually sufficient if you can shoot fast enough or if the Demo is injured. The Soldier is pretty even, but a good rocket jump and quick rockets can take a Demo out. A Pyro can support by airblasting projectiles. A good Scout is the best counter, since they're good at dodging and flanking, and can weapons heckle with his fast speed. The Scout has some weapons which can help him out too.
(conclusion)
Although sticky spam could be considered OP, it has its role in the game. A good nerf would be to lower the clip size, to force a Demo to spam less and be more considerate in shooting.

[Woobie :3]

Lowering the clip is a pretty simple nerf, so it could be implemented pretty easily. It'd also lower the Demoman's continued offensive presence, since he can't stay as long fighting before having to reload. It could also encourage more grenade use to support yourself when the Stickybomb Launcher is reloading. However, I don't think it drops the DPS but any significant amount (although I'm not sure if that would be relevant to your reasons to the nerf), so modifying attack speed or reload speed could also accomplish similar things.

[Propane Salesman]

I think a good nerf would be making it so that the stickybombs don't start the arming process until they hit a surface. That way you have a chance to escape and take little to no damage if you can react fast enough.

[Sir Zorba]

Originally posted by Propane Salesman:

I think a good nerf would be making it so that the stickybombs don't start the arming process until they hit a surface. That way you have a chance to escape and take little to no damage if you can react fast enough.

Except you can already do that. Average human reaction time and watching where the bombs are flying to is all you need to avoid them. Even as heavy you have a pretty good chance to do so if your gun isn't spinning.

[Woobie :3]

Originally posted by Propane Salesman:

I think a good nerf would be making it so that the stickybombs don't start the arming process until they hit a surface. That way you have a chance to escape and take little to no damage if you can react fast enough.

It'd also make the GL more useful for direct hits. However, I think it might be too easy to dodge if the timer started after the air travel time. If it just couldn't detonate in midair to prevent airbursts, it would probably work better since it would account for the airtravel time too.

[Sir Zorba]

Originally posted by Woobie :3:

Originally posted by Propane Salesman:

I think a good nerf would be making it so that the stickybombs don't start the arming process until they hit a surface. That way you have a chance to escape and take little to no damage if you can react fast enough.

It'd also make the GL more useful for direct hits. However, I think it might be too easy to dodge if the timer started after the air travel time. If it just couldn't detonate in midair to prevent airbursts, it would probably work better since it would account for the airtravel time too.

Nerfing the sticky launcher (which wouldn't change the nade launcher in any way) would make the nade launcher more useful?

Logic? What's that?

[Fumo Bnnuy n Frends]

i just go battle engy, setup a mini sentry a bit behind me, reload my metal, and use the short circuit really really carefully to take them out
im saying that if they lower the damn amount, it could give me a chance to fight back since an entire clip from the short circuit takes out all 8, but then theres about 2 other demos so it does ♥♥♥♥, or at least make it so that the short circuit can take out several stickies in a group at the cost of 1 sticky

[Carbon Corgi]

Originally posted by Woobie :3:

Originally posted by Edd the Wrangler Team Engie!:

A genuine tl;dr. Would you mind giving me a short version?

TL;DR:
(intro)
Talks about sticky spam, and the nerf in the Love and War update.
Some numbers about the damage of the sticky (120 - 100 if you get a solid detonation and wait a little bit, 60 - 70 if you do an immediate detonation), and how it was during the nerf (~30 damage).
(SL use)
To play with the SL, you gotta find a sweetspot, around medium range. The Demoman is very powerful when he has control of this sweetspot, since the SL has great area denial and damage. However, if he gets flanked, then the SL's detonation speed and the Demo's lack of hitscan weapons leaves him vulnerable. His slightly slow walking speed doesn't help, and sticky jumps require an armed sticky and the Demo has to take a big hit.
(class specifics)
A Spy has a decent chance beacuse the cloak allows him to get past that sweetspot, and the Revolver is usually sufficient if you can shoot fast enough or if the Demo is injured. The Soldier is pretty even, but a good rocket jump and quick rockets can take a Demo out. A Pyro can support by airblasting projectiles. A good Scout is the best counter, since they're good at dodging and flanking, and can weapons heckle with his fast speed. The Scout has some weapons which can help him out too.
(conclusion)
Although sticky spam could be considered OP, it has its role in the game. A good nerf would be to lower the clip size, to force a Demo to spam less and be more considerate in shooting.

Thanks, you worded it way better than i could

[Carbon Corgi]

Originally posted by Woobie :3:

Lowering the clip is a pretty simple nerf, so it could be implemented pretty easily. It'd also lower the Demoman's continued offensive presence, since he can't stay as long fighting before having to reload. It could also encourage more grenade use to support yourself when the Stickybomb Launcher is reloading. However, I don't think it drops the DPS but any significant amount (although I'm not sure if that would be relevant to your reasons to the nerf), so modifying attack speed or reload speed could also accomplish similar things.

My main idea was to keep the DPS, just lower the amount of time in which they can apply that DPS

[Woobie :3]

Originally posted by Sir Zorba:

Nerfing the sticky launcher (which wouldn't change the nade launcher in any way) would make the nade launcher more reliable?

Logic? What's that?

Perhaps "useful" isn't the proper word. It'd make the Demoman more reliant on the Grenade Launcher, but it wouldn't make the GL anymore reliable. If stickies were unable to airburst and you had to wait for the arm time once placed, then the sticky would become less reliable against enemies who are getting into close range (moreso than now), and the Demoman would have to use the GL for direct hits and doling out damage quickly.

[Fumo Bnnuy n Frends]

Originally posted by The Great Derping Derpderp:

Originally posted by Woobie :3:

Lowering the clip is a pretty simple nerf, so it could be implemented pretty easily. It'd also lower the Demoman's continued offensive presence, since he can't stay as long fighting before having to reload. It could also encourage more grenade use to support yourself when the Stickybomb Launcher is reloading. However, I don't think it drops the DPS but any significant amount (although I'm not sure if that would be relevant to your reasons to the nerf), so modifying attack speed or reload speed could also accomplish similar things.

My main idea was to keep the DPS, just lower the amount of time in which they can apply that DPS

what about a more permanent effective nerf, lowering the sticky clip by about 2 or 3 stickies, or make the reload time/firing speed slightly slower just so you wont go willy nilly with it
if people complain just say you got the scottish resistance if you want faster firing speed reload and more stickies

[Carbon Corgi]

Originally posted by newturtlebread3 senpai:

Originally posted by The Great Derping Derpderp:

My main idea was to keep the DPS, just lower the amount of time in which they can apply that DPS

what about a more permanent effective nerf, lowering the sticky clip by about 2 or 3 stickies, or make the reload time/firing speed slightly slower just so you wont go willy nilly with it
if people complain just say you got the scottish resistance if you want faster firing speed reload and more stickies

I wasnt disagreeing with your nerf ideas, just was responding to your comment on "I dont think it lowers the dps by that much"