Team Fortress 2

### Team Fortress 2

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Jedi(fla)master Jun 20, 2014 @ 3:21am
Making axtinguisher viable again, nerfing degreaser, making pyro balanced for skill.
Backstabbing is a joke. Who won't turn around when you set them on fire? Why not just m1 and deal reliable damage instead of going for trickstabs? The new axtinguisher goes straight to the garbage bin. How to save it? Here is what I've got after doing some math.

Lock afterburn damage per tick for degreaser to 3, same as stock. Reduce the afterburn time to 10 (5 secs, total 30 dmg) ticks for degreaser, 15 (7.5 secs, total 45 dmg) ticks for flamethrower.
Make axtinguisher deal 30 base +3 x remaining afterburn
Make flare gun deal 36 base + 2x remaining afterburn

Some math examples.

degreaser flame, airblast, flare combo
Losing 1 tick of afterburn over the airblast and switch duration. 36 base +2 X 27 afterburn remaining, 90 total provided you are fast. If you take your sweet time, the damage you can deal ticks down at a rate of 6 per second.

Degreaser axtinguisher combo
Provided you are at a wall you don't lose ticks. base 30 + 3 x 30 = 120
not as bad as current 90 for it to be useless, not as good as to ♥♥♥♥ soldiers with one hit. Damage ticks down at 9 per second.

flare axtinguisher with degreaser
You don't lose ticks on switch if you're fast. base 30+3x flaregun's 60 = 210. Tough, but requires weapon proficiency. Damage ticks down at 9 per second.

flare w/o degreaser axtinguisher
Requires weapon proficiency. You lose 2 ticks over the switch. 36 base + 3x 54 = 192. Pretty close to what it used to do.
Damage ticks down at 9 per second.

flamethrower airblast flare
You lose 2 ticks over the switch. 36+2x39
bams, If you're fast, you deal 114 damage. Of course aiming is harder, because You need to switch for longer so the enemy has time to react. Flares finally viable with stock

Heavy takedown combo (degreaser flame + flare+ axtinguisher)
90+210. Just enough to catch a heavy if he's with his pants off, requires expert weapon proficiency.

Why would this help:
In high level play, axtinguisher never was OP. In high level play, pyros are fast. This would put the axtinguisher and flares around where they used to be in competitive play, except for the degreaser combo dealing significantly less damage if you don't use your secondary with it, and reward you with a bit more if you do. Encourages using flares without airblast for takedown combos. Greater skill ceiling.

In pub level play, degreaser with axtinguisher could be cheap when it just crit. This change woulld make it take more than just degreaser into axe to deal tough damage on people who are bad.
Last edited by Jedi(fla)master; Jun 20, 2014 @ 5:32am
anarchist cat owner Jun 20, 2014 @ 3:25am
afterburn means nothing considering every single class has ways to mitigate fire/afterburn.

even if one admits the axetinguisher needed a nerf, which anyone with any skill says it did not: the current stats make no sense. having full crits from behind assumes the enemy wont simply TURN AROUND TO FACE THEIR ATTACKER.

pyros lost their only way of dealing close range damage and for a close range class thats not very good.
BushElito Jun 20, 2014 @ 3:25am
Implying that TF2 is all about comp.
Jedi(fla)master Jun 20, 2014 @ 3:27am
Originally posted by anarchist cat owner:
afterburn means nothing considering every single class has ways to mitigate fire/afterburn.
Those are burst damages based off of current afterburn remaining, similar to current system except they scale off how much fire damage there's left in it.
Last edited by Jedi(fla)master; Jun 20, 2014 @ 3:47am
Jedi(fla)master Jun 20, 2014 @ 3:29am
Originally posted by BushElito:
Implying that TF2 is all about comp.
I tried my best to create a solution that makes both comp and pub happy. For me it is all about comp. For you it may be all about pub. This solution would help in both, i think.
Ace42 Jun 20, 2014 @ 4:01am
TBH Axtinguisher shouldn't be "viable" per sé - a class with only short-range primaries shouldn't be preferring their melees to their Primaries anyway; and he shouldn't be using one to the exclusion of the others to make it viable.

The class needs a rework, and that should start with making Afterburn meaningful. While it's so easy to extinguish, it's a pointless joke no matter how your monkey around with the mechanic.
rikkurikku Jun 20, 2014 @ 4:03am
Originally posted by anarchist cat owner:
afterburn means nothing considering every single class has ways to mitigate fire/afterburn.

even if one admits the axetinguisher needed a nerf, which anyone with any skill says it did not: the current stats make no sense. having full crits from behind assumes the enemy wont simply TURN AROUND TO FACE THEIR ATTACKER.

pyros lost their only way of dealing close range damage and for a close range class thats not very good.

It's not like the Pyro has any weapons designed for Close Ranged combat, a Flamethrower for example.
Jedi(fla)master Jun 20, 2014 @ 4:05am
Originally posted by Ace42:
TBH Axtinguisher shouldn't be "viable" per sé - a class with only short-range primaries shouldn't be preferring their melees to their Primaries anyway;
Why not?
Ace42 Jun 20, 2014 @ 4:05am
It's not like the Pyro has any weapons designed for Close Ranged combat, a Flamethrower for example.

Flamethrower's weaksauce. The DPS is♥♥♥♥♥♥poor and it has funky limitations that make it even more patchy. I see a Pyro trying to W+M1 me, I cut him down with stock Shotguns before he does squat.

Originally posted by AV | Jedi(fla)master #save comp:
Why not?

Because the primacy of puff-n-sting is down to the rest of his kit being♥♥♥♥♥♥poor. Having one viable playstyle is inferior to having a variety of options. Pyro's thematic appeal is all there in his name - Pyro : Fire. It's inelegant to fudge a working Pyro by just making him hit people with a melee - that's a Demoknight.
Last edited by Ace42; Jun 20, 2014 @ 4:11am
Jedi(fla)master Jun 20, 2014 @ 4:06am
Originally posted by Ace42:
It's not like the Pyro has any weapons designed for Close Ranged combat, a Flamethrower for example.

Flamethrower's weaksauce. The DPS is♥♥♥♥♥♥poor and it has funky limitations that make it even more patchy. I see a Pyro trying to W+M1 me, I cut him down with stock Shotguns before he does squat.
You must have never battled a pyro who can aim it. Please, mge me.
Mr. Kira Jun 20, 2014 @ 4:11am
Originally posted by Ace42:
It's not like the Pyro has any weapons designed for Close Ranged combat, a Flamethrower for example.

Flamethrower's weaksauce. The DPS is♥♥♥♥♥♥poor and it has funky limitations that make it even more patchy. I see a Pyro trying to W+M1 me, I cut him down with stock Shotguns before he does squat.
You clearly haven't played a good pyro.
Menty Jun 20, 2014 @ 4:13am
Sounds like a proper idea
Ace42 Jun 20, 2014 @ 4:14am
Originally posted by AV | Jedi(fla)master #save comp:
You must have never battled a pyro who can aim it. Please, mge me.

"Aim it"? It deals broadly the same damage as a Shotgun at point-blank; it deals significantly less damage at the extremes.

Unless your ability to "aim it" somehow renders the mechanical limits built into the game null-and-void; then you'll die to someone with a Shotgun who can "aim it".

And no, I'm not going to waste my time in some pointless♥♥♥♥♥♥measuring contest with you: Even if we assume you're actually correct and FTs are fine, despite the Wiki stating otherwise, what if I broke your hands and stopped you from aiming it? Would my ability to out-duel you suddenly make me right in your mind?

Grow up.

Originally posted by Mr. Kira:
You clearly haven't played a good pyro.

Unless a "good Pyro" has a magic trick that increases its DPS above the 155dps level and extends the effective range of the flame particles; I don't really need to.

Shotgun has broadly the same DPS under nearly all circumstances - and it outranges the FT.
Last edited by Ace42; Jun 20, 2014 @ 4:16am
Jedi(fla)master Jun 20, 2014 @ 4:24am
Originally posted by Ace42:
Originally posted by AV | Jedi(fla)master #save comp:
You must have never battled a pyro who can aim it. Please, mge me.

"Aim it"? It deals broadly the same damage as a Shotgun at point-blank; it deals significantly less damage at the extremes.

Unless your ability to "aim it" somehow renders the mechanical limits built into the game null-and-void; then you'll die to someone with a Shotgun who can "aim it".

And no, I'm not going to waste my time in some pointless♥♥♥♥♥♥measuring contest with you: Even if we assume you're actually correct and FTs are fine, despite the Wiki stating otherwise, what if I broke your hands and stopped you from aiming it? Would my ability to out-duel you suddenly make me right in your mind?

Grow up.

degreaser flames 153,5 dps

flamethrower flames 170 dps

shotgun dps 144

You didn't even do your math right.

"If I broke your arms". Breaking one's arms is not usual conduct in playing this game. Playing against them is. Please stop embarassing yourself.
Last edited by Jedi(fla)master; Jun 20, 2014 @ 4:25am
Ace42 Jun 20, 2014 @ 4:35am
Originally posted by AV | Jedi(fla)master #save comp:
degreaser flames 153,5 dps
https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Degreaser
6.14dpp; 138.7dps at close range.

flamethrower flames 170 dps
http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Flame_Thrower
6.82 dpp; 153.45dps at close range.

shotgun dps 144
https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Shotgun
133-150dps.

Not at 133dps, it doesn't vs a Pyro...

You didn't even do your math right.
Tell it to the wiki? The Shotgun's burst damage and better range characteristics means that it will deliver lethal damage before the Flamethrower does under typical conditions.

"If I broke your arms". Breaking one's arms is not usual conduct in playing this game. Playing against them is. Please stop embarassing yourself.

Embarrassing myself? You are too stupid to even follow a simple point that is made explicit to you...

Your argument was that you winning a duel with me would somehow make your point for you; my point was the outcome of the duel would not necessarily be contingent on the matter at hand.

If you beat me in a duel because I happened to have my hand in a cast at the moment - does that make Pyro's Primaries powerful? As my hand heals, does that make the Shotgun more powerful? If you were then to have your hand-broken, does that somehow cause the game to be repatched and the Flamethrower to get nerfed by Valve?

Clearly not... Anyone with an IQ in the treble digits (apparently not you, though) would see that the outcome of a duel has no bearing on the case being discussed.
Jedi(fla)master Jun 20, 2014 @ 4:42am
Originally posted by Ace42:
Originally posted by AV | Jedi(fla)master #save comp:
degreaser flames 153,5 dps
https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Degreaser
6.14dpp; 138.7dps at close range.

flamethrower flames 170 dps
http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Flame_Thrower
6.82 dpp; 153.45dps at close range.

shotgun dps 144
https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Shotgun
133-150dps.

Not at 133dps, it doesn't vs a Pyro...

You didn't even do your math right.
Tell it to the wiki? The Shotgun's burst damage and better range characteristics means that it will deliver lethal damage before the Flamethrower does under typical conditions.

"If I broke your arms". Breaking one's arms is not usual conduct in playing this game. Playing against them is. Please stop embarassing yourself.

Embarrassing myself? You are too stupid to even follow a simple point that is made explicit to you...

Your argument was that you winning a duel with me would somehow make your point for you; my point was the outcome of the duel would not necessarily be contingent on the matter at hand.

If you beat me in a duel because I happened to have my hand in a cast at the moment - does that make Pyro's Primaries powerful? As my hand heals, does that make the Shotgun more powerful? If you were then to have your hand-broken, does that somehow cause the game to be repatched and the Flamethrower to get nerfed by Valve?

Clearly not... Anyone with an IQ in the treble digits (apparently not you, though) would see that the outcome of a duel has no bearing on the case being discussed.

I assumed You didn't have your arms broken when I proposed a duel to you. I don't know what wiki bases their measurements off, but if dps calculations differ depending on if you calculate them yourself based on the data they present, and their own results differ, it's not a trustworthy source. Which they do, it seems. Also calling me stupid is ad hominem and not relevant to the topic. All you're doing is exposing your bigotry. If you want to measure raw dps, we can do that too.