Lost Labyrinth Extended Version

Lost Labyrinth Extended Version

Gameplay/interface ideas
I mailed something like 15 suggestions to Markus a couple of days ago. But it occured to me that maybe it's better to post ideas on the forum, where they can be discussed and refined by more people.

New ideas:

1. Ranged combat is upside down.

Lost Labyrinth has MOVE + ACTION system. This works just fine for melee combat, but, playing an archer I find myself walking up to monsters to shoot them in the face, to save turns. This is odd. It doesn't make much difference with weak monsters. With stronger ones, only high Dexterity of shooters saves them from taking hits. Arcane Shot builds may not even have that.

Proposal is pretty obvious. Allow not just MOVE + ACTION, but also ACTION + MOVE (or at least (ATTACK + MOVE), in that order. The only downside (?) I can think of is sudden resistance to ambushes.

options:
- a mode/command available to all
- linked to a new skill
- as a ranged weapon fighting style (Fighting Styles skill)

If it's not limited to ranged weapons, it could become a new option for ambushes.

2. Display how many times a spell can be cast per level.

You can print a message: "X uses left on this level". This way it could be applied to normal spellscasting, scrolls and staves.

3. New fighting style for Unarmed Combat. Enabled by Fighting Styles skill.

Grappling. If you hit the monster but not kill it, you PULL that monster 1 space towards you (and you move back 1 square). Reverse Sokoban.

Alternative: instead of pulling a monster, you push it 1 square (and don't step forward). This would have 2 benefits: 1) better against ambushes 2) enables hit&run, or hit&push. Too powerful ?
Last edited by SquareDildo; Nov 8, 2016 @ 8:46am
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Showing 1-10 of 10 comments
Gwahli Nov 8, 2016 @ 2:40pm 
1. We have actually pondered an action point system, where attacking and similar actions just reduce X from your number of what is now "steps".
Then if you walk around a lot, you may not even have enough points left for attacking. And if you stand still, you can get several attack in one turn.
A problem when allowing for "attack, then move" is, that melee monsters would be complelely helpless outside ambush situations.
Also, monsters standing right around a corner would be the most vulnerable instead of the most dangerous. Right now, a monster in such a position will force even ranged players into their melee range. You have to one-shot them to avoid them attacking you. If you could move after attacking, any player could take them out and avoid any return fire by simply stepping back around the corner.

2. A message is a good idea, yes. One needs to be aware of spell limits.

3. Those could be done I guess. We'd have to introduce a new monster stat to mark how hard it is to push around. It should require a lot more strength to push around a dragon or a stone golem instead of a goblin or a rat.
The pull is obviously not OP as you'd still be in melee range. The push can be made reasonable too depending on the requirements and the possible resistance to push attacks. The usual labyrinthian map layout will also limit the pushing because you will reach a corner sooner or later.
Last edited by Gwahli; Nov 8, 2016 @ 2:48pm
SquareDildo Nov 10, 2016 @ 7:39am 
Good points about design and balance. So it's probably better to implement the pulling variant of unarmed combat.

It seems that you just want big and heavy monsters to be hard to push around. There are already stats for this: HP and Armour. You could just inspect the sum of HP and armour, compare it with Strenght etc. Or maybe better Damage stat ? Otherwise, it would push unarmed combat users (even more) towards Strenght and I don't think that's necessary. Naturally you could provide a sister fighting style that's based on Dex, but I'm currently out of ideas.

But by basing it too much on stat you risk making it not very useful. High Attack builds with Fighting Styles are currently fun because you can use pretty much any weapon that fits the situation.

Another issue is ghosts and invulnerable monsters. They can't be harmed by non-magical weapons, and it seems to be implemented as no chance to hit. Should ghost be possible to pull around without Ghost Hunter ?
Last edited by SquareDildo; Nov 10, 2016 @ 7:45am
SquareDildo Nov 12, 2016 @ 8:43am 
Petrification grace period
I find petrification highly frustrating. I don't like the idea of instakills. In Lost Labyrinth, combat and exploration is often quite repetitive, and I lost a couple of characters because I pressed a key before I realized there's a gorgon/beholder/lamia in view. Typically when I go around the corner and hit something. Many times it happened while I had a potion of petrification resistance in inventory!

I understand that different games have different design philosophies and you make your own game to realize your vision, not somebody else's. But I think it would be a nice compromise if petrification had a countdown. 3...2...1... DEAD. That way, players who are prepared would have a chance to drink a potion of petrification resistance. In real world, rabies vaccines work much the same way. Rabies is *still* a disease which can't be cured! But it develops very, very slowly and if you give a person bitten by a rabid dog a vaccine, he will develop immunity before the disease kills him. I know, I've been there.

Reason ? I think petrification is too punishing, and it punishes the wrong thing. It punishes players for one keypress too many. Players who take care to look for protecting equipment shouldn't be instantly petrified with no chance to react. A pop-up window like "There's a petrifying monster in view!" would also work, I mean it would prefer it to the current situation.

I know there are traits which make you outright immune to petrification (Earth Sense, Monster Sense), but I would like to also play characters who don't rely on such perks. I have Monster Sense on my thief, and it goes very well with Spelunker. I can break a boulder and not be surprised by an alert monster on the other side.

Currently the alternative to taking petrification-resistance perks seems to be playing very slowly and carefully. And that's not so fun.
Gwahli Nov 13, 2016 @ 4:33am 
Originally posted by SquareDildo:
if petrification had a countdown. 3...2...1... DEAD. That way, players who are prepared would have a chance to drink a potion of petrification resistance
That way the potion would be OP. As you get a natural "luck" based chance to resist stone gaze and there's also "favoured of the gods", you could simply keep a "protection" spell in your back pocket and don't even have to use it at all most of the time. The way you described it, even seeing the gorgon, you would not want to use the potion beforehand. You might get her killed before she petrifies you after all - if not, - still no problem.
Btw. for people without Earth Magic and Earth Sense, there is an amulet giving protection. With a grace period, you would not even have to waer it. Just pop it on if you DO get petrified.

A pop-up window should technically only appear if you have taken Monster Lore. Else the character would not even know which monsters can petrify.
Last edited by Gwahli; Nov 13, 2016 @ 4:33am
SquareDildo Nov 13, 2016 @ 11:44pm 
In my games I've never seen the amulet. As for the potion, I carry them around but I don't remember a case where I used one. I either die to petrification or walk around the gorgon. And if beholders ambush you, you can kill them in melee with whirlwind attack.
SquareDildo Nov 16, 2016 @ 2:49am 
You do realize you're defending the most foul form of trial&error gameplay ? Also, consider that player may know which monsters petrify even if his character can't tell the difference. This could be solved by a player-configurable pop-up warning. In settings/options menu, player could enter several monster names. Then, as soon as the monster with that name comes into view, the pop-up window appears. For players like me an obnoxious pop-up message would be a small price for saving a character I've been playing for several hours.
SquareDildo Nov 16, 2016 @ 2:55am 
5. Monster indentification idea
When you enter an Old Wizard room, one of the options that you can choose is "Ask wizard about a monster". You can enter a monster name, and if it matches an existing monster, a detailed information for that monster appears.

Alternatively, it could be in another room, for example "tavern with adventurers". Yes, I think this makes more sense.
Gwahli Nov 16, 2016 @ 2:02pm 
Originally posted by SquareDildo:
You do realize you're defending the most foul form of trial&error gameplay ? Also, consider that player may know which monsters petrify even if his character can't tell the difference.
If a player already knows which monsters can petrify, then seeing the monster should ring the alarm already I'd expect. The pop up is still possible I guess, but I'll first implement the configurable keyboard that was asked by somebody else.
As to the "trial & error": I'd rather like to call it "exploration" or "learning curve" .. that does give it a nicer spin. :P Seriously though, yes, I kinda DO defend it I guess. It is a common aspect of rogue games and many RPGs and also action games have that too. Typical examples are boss fights where they roflstomp you until you learn their abilities and patterns. I won't try to tell you it's great game design. It's just not all that easy to remove. Unless one is willing to replace "annoying artificial difficulty" with "no difficulty".

Lost Labyrinth is also one of the very rare rogues where you can use save/load tactics if you want to. Perma-death mode is optional after all and possibly not the best mode for new players. You may also edit away all monsters insta-death skills if you don't like restoring after death via loading a saved game.

Monster indentification idea: Good idea. There could also be other sources like books or scrolls with information about monsters.
Last edited by Gwahli; Nov 16, 2016 @ 2:11pm
heromedel Apr 27, 2023 @ 11:21pm 
Originally posted by Gwahli:
1. We have actually pondered an action point system, where attacking and similar actions just reduce X from your number of what is now "steps".
Then if you walk around a lot, you may not even have enough points left for attacking. And if you stand still, you can get several attack in one turn.
A problem when allowing for "attack, then move" is, that melee monsters would be complelely helpless outside ambush situations.
Also, monsters standing right around a corner would be the most vulnerable instead of the most dangerous. Right now, a monster in such a position will force even ranged players into their melee range. You have to one-shot them to avoid them attacking you. If you could move after attacking, any player could take them out and avoid any return fire by simply stepping back around the corner.

2. A message is a good idea, yes. One needs to be aware of spell limits.

3. Those could be done I guess. We'd have to introduce a new monster stat to mark how hard it is to push around. It should require a lot more strength to push around a dragon or a stone golem instead of a goblin or a rat.
The pull is obviously not OP as you'd still be in melee range. The push can be made reasonable too depending on the requirements and the possible resistance to push attacks. The usual labyrinthian map layout will also limit the pushing because you will reach a corner sooner or later.

You could make some or all enemies able to lock a character into melee for one turn.

Then if your ambushed you can't attack and then move.
heromedel Apr 27, 2023 @ 11:34pm 
My request would be for steam deck support.
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