Boss Run Discussion

[Stovich]

There is no doubt in my mind that Wuppo is one of the best metroid-ish puzzle platformers I've played in years. It subverts many of the common expectations of the genre (such as mobility/jump boosting item progression) while building a diverse game world with a gigantic sense of scale.

This is why I must step up to the plate and slam down the Boss Run mode for being the hastily-thrown-together trash that it is.

I would also like to preface this by saying that the bosses by themselves as set-piece encounters scattered across the main game were fantastic. Given that my first run through the game was on Insane difficulty and I never died more than four times on any given boss, I would like to believe that the bosses are well-designed and thoughtfully balanced.

In Boss Run mode, not only is weapon/happiness progression thrown out, but the player must endure long sprints through several bosses without much in the way of free healing. Yes, the player is offered a consumable & weapon shop after every 3 boss kills, but there isn't much flexibility offered in terms of what the player can afford.

I would like to open up Boss Run mode to a critical discussion in hopes that the feedback will lead to gameplay/balance adjustments that bring it up to par with the rest of Wuppo's quality content.

[Stovich]

Here is a list of issues that I feel are pertinent to this topic:

1) The player encounters a jarring difficulty ramp after the fourth shop: The player must defeat all Fnakker squad bosses plus Bram without any free healing or respite. These encounters are not diverse at all, and each boss has an attack pattern that consists only of "I am going to stupid the player to death with rocks/gum/sticks spam." It just feels stupid and unfair given the steady difficulty ramp up to this point.

2) King Cone should not be able to use his tongue attack while walking. As far as I can tell, this attack is unavoidable when the player is in range. In current state, the player has no choice but to take inescapable damage when King Cone randomly decides to walk past the player to the other side of the boss room.

3) The player should be temporarily invincible after killing a boss. Movement controls are immediately disabled after certain boss kills. Often times there are still projectiles flying around the room after a boss kill that leaves the player immobilized. There have been many times that I have taken full damage from a wayward projectile (and even died) after killing a boss.

4) The unskippable animations and deliberate cadence added to the boss level transitions feel slow and annoying.

5) Wuppo's signature slow conversation mechanics are in full effect in the Boss Run shop. I kinda wish that I could just click on Tein and have it take me directly to his shop inventory. I really did not need a long-winded justification as to why this part of the game canonically exists as part of the Wuppo universe.

As for things that I like about the Boss Run:

1) Murk and the Kneft Infestation are consistently tough to get through without damage, so it was an excellent choice by the developer to have the Breevis fight directly afterward. Breevis offers the player an opportunity to fully heal up for free, it just requires a bit of skill and practice. This also fits perfectly into the grand scheme of placing the hardest boss marathon directly afterward.

2) Blafknoft is a long and frustrating early-game boss fight, so it is nice that the player is given a shop visit directly afterward, along with some free healing throughout the fight.

[snekflat]

Hello!

Thank you for the feedback. It is very much appreciated. I'd also like to mention that we're very open to suggestions for Boss Run in its current state, and we take suggestions into consideration for an actual update, whenever we have time for it.

There is a boss run update coming very soon (hopefully today!). It will include the option to set your difficulty, so it becomes more accessible for players. Currently, Boss Run is only available in hard mode, and that's... a little too hard for the majority of players. Easy, Normal, Hard and Insane will all have separated leaderboards; The current leaderboard will be moved to Hard.

Originally posted by (+__::) Stovich:

1) The player encounters a jarring difficulty ramp after the fourth shop: The player must defeat all Fnakker squad bosses plus Bram without any free healing or respite. These encounters are not diverse at all, and each boss has an attack pattern that consists only of "I am going to stupid the player to death with rocks/gum/sticks spam." It just feels stupid and unfair given the steady difficulty ramp up to this point.

I can fairly easily change the order of bosses and the varieties of orders. Do you have any suggestions for a specific order that would work better?

Originally posted by (+__::) Stovich:

2) King Cone should not be able to use his tongue attack while walking. As far as I can tell, this attack is unavoidable when the player is in range. In current state, the player has no choice but to take inescapable damage when King Cone randomly decides to walk past the player to the other side of the boss room.

Good suggestion. I will try to quickly add this for the upcoming update.
EDIT: added for 1.1.60+

Originally posted by (+__::) Stovich:

3) The player should be temporarily invincible after killing a boss. Movement controls are immediately disabled after certain boss kills. Often times there are still projectiles flying around the room after a boss kill that leaves the player immobilized. There have been many times that I have taken full damage from a wayward projectile (and even died) after killing a boss.

Good suggestion. I will try to quickly add this for the upcoming update.
EDIT: added for 1.1.60+

Originally posted by (+__::) Stovich:

4) The unskippable animations and deliberate cadence added to the boss level transitions feel slow and annoying.

They are skippable. Click on the left mouse button or press the interaction button on gamepad.

Originally posted by (+__::) Stovich:

5) Wuppo's signature slow conversation mechanics are in full effect in the Boss Run shop. I kinda wish that I could just click on Tein and have it take me directly to his shop inventory. I really did not need a long-winded justification as to why this part of the game canonically exists as part of the Wuppo universe.

I agree it would be better if it were quicker. It's a bit hard to change it without overhauling the game's mechanics. I'll see if I can do something when I have some time.

Thanks!
-LARS

[snekflat]

Wuppo BETA 1.1.61 released. I've added a normal shop for Raab, so you can buy more blarb at the same time. The proces should be a lot quicker. It needs some testing before moving it out of the BETA branch though.

[Robin]

Just want to thank you for your responses about this. Trying the boss run straight after the main game was a difficulty spike I never expected especially considering I felt the bosses were a weaker part of the game (just a personal opinion). That's for changing some things about it and making it a bit more accessible. The game is great and i'm glad to see you still care about it too.

[Dmitry]

I don't like the Boss Run. It feels unfinished, unbalanced, and ridiculously hard. I finished the main game on Impossible, so I'm not unskilled. During the main game we increase the HP, but we can't do it in the Boss Run, meaning we're doomed to have less chances, because 100 is less than 150 and 200. And these low chances multiply. Still we can buy items that restore more than 100 HP - why? Looks like the Boss Run needs a lot of time to spend on training to do the things flawless, but the process isn't rewarding. Beating the same bosses again and again and dying is not fun.

[snekflat]

Originally posted by bucdafuc:

I don't like the Boss Run. It feels unfinished, unbalanced, and ridiculously hard. I finished the main game on Impossible, so I'm not unskilled. During the main game we increase the HP, but we can't do it in the Boss Run, meaning we're doomed to have less chances, because 100 is less than 150 and 200. And these low chances multiply. Still we can buy items that restore more than 100 HP - why? Looks like the Boss Run needs a lot of time to spend on training to do the things flawless, but the process isn't rewarding. Beating the same bosses again and again and dying is not fun.

Boss Run is very hard indeed. However, that's not unintended. If you want more difficulty after finishing the story, Boss Run could provide that. There's no need to finish it on insane though. So if you want to breeze through it, just select a lower difficulty :)

Yes, you will need completely different strategies to defeat bosses than in the main game. You can actually increase your max HP (fatness blarb gives max HP). We feel this format makes it more interesting, instead of just fighting one boss after another with the items you'd normally get in the main game. If you dislike the format and you still want to fight the bosses, you can also just fight them individually without having to heal inbetween fights (or you can use practice mode to test out item strategies, before committing to them in all boss mode).

If you simply don't like Boss Run, that's understandable. Keep in mind, we've built Boss Run due to many players asking for it. It's a free update. Suggestions are always welcome though!
-LARS

[Dmitry]

What strategy do you recommend for completion of the Boss Run without any bought items?

[snekflat]

Originally posted by bucdafuc:

What strategy do you recommend for completion of the Boss Run without any bought items?

If you're going for all achievements, of course it's going to be extra difficult xD I'd recommend not getting hit. And the strategy for that differs per boss. You don't have to worry about being fast. And you can play on normal difficulty for the achievement. People have done this when Boss Run only had hard mode (the separate difficulties were added in a recent update). It's definitely possible, though probably the hardest achievement in the game. -LARS

[Stovich]

My apologies for the late reply! I appreciate the tweaks and attention given to this game mode. The King Cone boss fight feels pretty much perfect now.

And thank you for making the player temporarily invincible after a boss kill!

I wish there was more feedback from others on the Fnakker marathon at the end of Boss Rush.

I have tried to beat the No Shop Challenge for the Boss Rush on Hard, then on Normal without at least sixty times now, and I can consistently reach Fnakkers without a scratch and still holding my ice cream. I hit a wall here though and have no idea how to proceed.

I don't know if I just suck at dodging the rocks, or if I am failing to recognize valid strategies, but I feel pretty much hopeless and clueless as to how to get past these fights. I have never beaten more than one Fnakker squad boss in a single "No shop run". Projectiles linger on the ground for a long time, zoning the player out from traversing the battlefield, and the enemy projectiles move at a relatively high velocity for such short-range attacks.

I am open to suggestions on how to tackle each Fnakker squad boss, or would like to watch a pro beat them without shop upgrades.

Last Suggestion: Please don't give the player a Gumgum Gun upgrade by default in the practice modes, thanks!

[Dmitry]

Originally posted by Knuist & Perzik:

People have done this

4 people in entire world.
http://astats.astats.nl/astats/Steam_Achievement_Info.php?Tab=2&AchievementID=19&AppID=400630
(I trust only AStats, because I know how heavily SAM is used)
And I don't see you among them, heheh.

[snekflat]

Originally posted by (+__::) Stovich:

My apologies for the late reply! I appreciate the tweaks and attention given to this game mode. The King Cone boss fight feels pretty much perfect now.

And thank you for making the player temporarily invincible after a boss kill!

:D

Originally posted by (+__::) Stovich:

I have tried to beat the No Shop Challenge for the Boss Rush on Hard, then on Normal without at least sixty times now, and I can consistently reach Fnakkers without a scratch and still holding my ice cream. I hit a wall here though and have no idea how to proceed.

I don't know if I just suck at dodging the rocks, or if I am failing to recognize valid strategies, but I feel pretty much hopeless and clueless as to how to get past these fights. I have never beaten more than one Fnakker squad boss in a single "No shop run". Projectiles linger on the ground for a long time, zoning the player out from traversing the battlefield, and the enemy projectiles move at a relatively high velocity for such short-range attacks.

I am open to suggestions on how to tackle each Fnakker squad boss, or would like to watch a pro beat them without shop upgrades.

For the fnakker friends, they are all different. Gnurk (The fat one) is probably the one that deals most damage. Pelvin (The blue one with the hat) reflects gumgumballs. Frank (the small one with the bad haircut) throws fnakker crackers at the others, which heals them. He prioritizes healing Gnurk (the fat one). But you can also intercept the fnakker crackers and be healed instead. Frank (healing fnakker) doesn't throw rocks, so you don't have to worry about him doing damage. He doesn't heal himself. The best way to beat them (for the impossible achievement) is to keep Frank around for a while, but try to separate him from the fnakker(s) that you are attacking, and try to intercept all the fnakker crackers to heal yourself.

For the bib fnakkers, try to fight them 1 by 1. Not at the same time.
Try to get in the middle, then push away the one on the left away by walking towards it, as they always try to maintain a certain distance. Then focus on the other one that you cornered on the right side of the screen. The one that's not carrying the oonion seems to be easier for me to take out.

Also, remember you can destroy their projectiles by shooting on them. The projectiles also get smaller as you hit them. The smaller they are, the less damage they do.

Originally posted by (+__::) Stovich:

Last Suggestion: Please don't give the player a Gumgum Gun upgrade by default in the practice modes, thanks!

I'll add in the regular gumcore back in your inventory, so people can practice for the impossible achievement. Great suggestion. Thanks!

Originally posted by bucdafuc:

Originally posted by Knuist & Perzik:

People have done this

4 people in entire world.
http://astats.astats.nl/astats/Steam_Achievement_Info.php?Tab=2&AchievementID=19&AppID=400630
(I trust only AStats, because I know how heavily SAM is used)
And I don't see you among them, heheh.

That site isn't exactly accurate. It's extremely far off in terms of owners/players as well.
https://steamcommunity.com/stats/400630/achievements
According to Steam's stats, 0.7% has the impossible achievement. It's hard to see 0.7% of what number it is exactly (e.g. owners or players?), but you can check the % relatively to the other achievements. For example, 0.8% beats boss run under 25 minutes. You can count those in the leaderboards (that's excluding the people that play offline). That would mean that about 32 people got the impossible achievement. That's still a low number, but Wuppo players generally aren't that committed to all boss run mode. 924 people have a place in the different leaderboards. That would mean about 3.5% of the (online) boss run players get the impossible achievement. Keep in mind that the majority of those 924 people probably didn't try to go for the impossible achievement at all. So the numbers actually don't seem that alarming to me. Especially for an achievement that is literally called "Impossible" xD.

However, I do feel like the high difficulty is what makes most players not commit to boss run at all. So I've added the following adjustment in 1.1.64:

You will start with 2 ice creams when playing on HARD & INSANE. You will start with 3 ice creams when playing on NORMAL & EASY.

You can activate the beta channel to update to 1.1.64 in about an hour from now.

Cheers!
- LARS

[Dmitry]

0.7% of what number it is exactly

0.7% of those who has got at least one achievement.

924 people have a place in the different leaderboards.

I don't know where this number is, it's pretty high, and it means at least 924 people finished the story mode and we probably can associate this number with 6,7% who has got the achievement for finishing the game, and it gives us 96 people with the impossible achievement. But then there is a SAM factor, people just unlock everything in a minute and return to Dota, let's assume SAM added 0,6% to all achievements, it means 924 is 6,1%, and 0,1% of people with the true impossible achievement will be 15. Or 30 for 0,2%.

+0,6% is not much, vice versa, I have in my library a game with broken achievement at 3%.

[snekflat]

I'm pretty sure you're making a mistake somewhere in there xP We can quite easily count the players that finished boss run under 25 minutes by simply checking the stats on the leaderboards. Which is 38 people. According to the achievements page, 38 people is 0,8%. So 0,7% could never be 96 people. The 924 leaderboard entries don't correspond with the amount of people that finished the game either. A large portion of the people that finish the game don't boot up Boss Run. What numbers those percentages represent is pretty complicated, so I think our best bet is checking it relatively with the people that got the Boss Run: World Champion achievement :)

Anyway, I've uploaded version 1.1.64. Hopefully the extra ice cream will help!

Cheers, -LARS

[Dmitry]

So 0,7% could never be 96 people.

Of course, that's why I am talking about SAM. 96 is not an actual number, 15-30 is. Don't you know about Steam Achievement Manager? Simple program, unlocks everything in a moment.
For example, "All rounder" achievement here with 0,4% http://steamcommunity.com/stats/576130/achievements/
It NEVER worked, unlocked by SAM.

"THE END!" here, 3,1% http://steamcommunity.com/stats/338050/achievements/
NEVER worked.

Percentages you see on Steam are always wrong, the harder the achievement, the less people actually achieved it compared to easier achievements.

[snekflat]

Woops, missed that part of your response. My bad. With 30 you're coming pretty close. But using SAM you would unlock both the under 25 min achievement and the impossible achievement. So again, checking it relatively compared to the other achievement (which we can actually check excluding SAM, because SAM won't add you into the leaderboard) will probably still give the best result, right?