Pvt.Erik Apr 11, 2013 @ 12:31am
Why This Game Fails
To begin with, I am a veteran of the original Red Orchestra. Not because that makes me better than someone else here. I just want to point it out before people start to accuse me for being a CoD players.

What I liked about Red Orchesta 1 was how different it was from other shooters. Maps was quite open and free, I couldn't pick any role I wanted and get into the game. There was loads of vehicles (bikes, tanks, halftracks) and much attention fell on small details. Historical accuracy, many small details such as being able to remove your bayonette with the press of a button or changing barrels on the MG, or issuing quite complex orders. The combat felt extremely immersive. The gamelay was much more slowpaced than in many other shooters. There was no special weapons or ''perks'', or any quick fixes. The HUD was down to a minimum. The game was brutal and unforgiving. This meant that you had to rely completely on your own skills.

When someone manage to kill you, they did not do so because they had a better unlock, or a better perk that gave them better aiming, they did so because they were simply better than you. Better at scouting their surrounding, better reflexes, better at aiming..just a better player. And this meant that you had to restart from mainspawn. Sometimes far away. Shooting itself was never just a case of 'point and press'. Only the most experienced players could do the most amazing shoots. It took great effort and practise. Then the mod Darkest Hour was released. It basically improved everything in Red Orchestra Ostfront and made it all much better.

With Red Orchestra 2, things were changed in order ''to appeal to a wider audience'' as TWI put it. They even put a banner saying ''Why Red Orchestra 2 will beat Call of Duty: Black Ops''. Just for this cause, they implemented the tiresome features clearly inspired from many other generic FPS games: recon plane, progression system, unlocks, perks, much faster gameplay, more twitchshooting, more HUD details, spawn on squadleader, smaller maps, and removal of ''advanced'' features such as a command system, pick up and drop ammo, detachable/removable bayonettes. No more bikes, halftracks, or a wide variety of tanks. Instead more focus on interrior. So much focus that only 1-2 tanks could be released and no more than that. But no one would need halftracks because the maps are so small! No moral historial accuracy but rather people running around with MkB and silenced weapons... in Stalingrad. Ostfront was not the perfect game... but it was a great game even though it had its flaws.

Ironically, they (TWI) recently complained about how ''CoD have ruined a generations of gamers'' in an article. They (TWI) did not only screw up with a buggy, unstable release, but they released the game in a overall horrible state. So a lot of time and effort had to be put to improve Realism Mode (it was even more unrealistic before) and finally they released ''Action Mode'' about a year later aswell as Classic Mode. They left their fans behind by offering them a cheap ''Classic Mode'' aswell as offering CoD players ''Action Mode''. But the truth is that it is horrible modes that tries to be something it isn't. How many people play Action Mode? Well, a few, but as soon as the free weekend is over people leave. Same thing with Classic. Realism Mode only holds a low amount of players except in free weekends.

The game tries to make everyone happy. What is does is that it fails, and only make a few people happy. This approach have almost killed the whole community. It have devided it. I have been in the community for a long time. Many years ago Tripwire made a lot of promises on their board. Promises that never was held. They left their fans behind. People that had been supporting them since Red Orchestra: Combined Arms. Which was the very first game, before Red Orchestra Ostfront. If it wasn't for those people Tripwire wouldn't exist. Because their game started off as a mod. Tripwire managed to abandon their old fans and they effectively killed the biggest (and very important) Competetive Community, called Roladder. It got closed down. It's website is gone and their relationship with Tripwire broken.
There is no wonder why people complain about RO2. It tries to appeal to almost everyone and the effect is that only a small amount of people is happy with the game. Fact is that they can't compete with CoD and at the same time trying to stay true to their roots. This is why they need free weekends all the time: to get new players into the game. But as soon as its over, the player count gets low again.

For those of you that haven't played RO1 you should try it out. There is STILL people playing it despite the fact that it is outdated, despite its advanced years. It is a great game and if you play it you will experience something you've never experienced before. It is a game in its own rights. RO2 is also that, but it takes to much from other shooters which makes it unstable and LESS unique.

Don't play RO2.

Play RO1. It might be outdated, but there are far more features in it. Tanks, halftracks, much better firefights, more content, way more realistic than RO2 (there are no unlocks, perks, or a lot of HUD elements, no spawn on SL etc). RO1 is on Life support, but with your help, you can keep this strong game alive EVEN longer. RO1 also have a better Community. Most of the RO2 Community consist of kids and CoD fanatics. This is why there is almost no teamwork. RO2 community is devided.

This is RO1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKLMNlv-zqY
Last edited by Pvt.Erik; Apr 11, 2013 @ 12:35am
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Disgruntled Apr 11, 2013 @ 1:07am 
Are there still people playing RO1?

Edit: I meant it as a honest question, I am considering trying it.
Pvt.Erik Apr 11, 2013 @ 1:25am 
Actually, yes, there is still people playing.

Unfortunately, Darkest Hour has died. Only a few people play it during FightNights.

If you want to know when FightNight in RO1 takes Place check this thread:

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=76052

However, you don't have to play it at fightnights only. There should be enough players anyway and finding 30+ players in a server shouldnt be a problem (at least not in the evening, depends on where you live though!)
Proteus Apr 11, 2013 @ 3:01am 
I for my part don´t think you´re right with this.
I like the leveling system (it gives you something to strive for, apart from purely getting better at the game [which also is the reason why I prefer RPGs over Adventure Games btw.]) but at the same time doesn´t seem to be overpowering in the advantages it gives players.
If someone with Level 99 kills me (with just Level 34) the reason usually can be attributed to the skills he has gained by playing the game for hundreds of hours (compared to my just ~45 hours) and to me being at the wrong place at the right time (or sticking my head a little bit too long above the cover) and not to the advantages he gained due to his level.

I agree however that the game could use at least a few larger maps (in the current maps the distances for shooting rarely exceed 200m (due to map size, blocking houses or fog) and I would also like a few more pilotable vehicles (especially halftracks like the SdKFZ 251) ... although I have to add that, after all I read, the (only 2) Vehicles in RO2 employ a more realistic armor/hit system, than the vehicles did in RO1

(And for completeness sake I might add that I always play RO2 in Realism mode and also never played CoD [but also never played RO1] and therefore also am not one of the CoD kiddies ;) [I like realism in my wargames])
Hallo111 Apr 11, 2013 @ 3:23am 
Well taths a big problem in the whol gaming comuniti with the wider audience and more casual gameplay. Sorry for bad english.
Groene_Thee (banned) Apr 11, 2013 @ 4:09am 
TWI tried to lure in the CoD-crowd by adding in CoD-elements in RO2, hence the high quantity of MKB.42 madness and the instant stop-and-shoot mechanic in REALISM mode (and that is heavy MG's included, LOL!!!), the l33t camo-soldier with MKB.42 on the cover of the boxes and the l33t sniper with camo on the main menu screen....

On top of that all of the TWI official servers are all action mode... its like TWI doesnt care about the spirit of RO.

All for the money, I know. But the quality of RO2 is not good compared to RO1.
EARL MR. EARLY BIRD Apr 11, 2013 @ 4:18am 
The campaign is also complete trash. I'd rather stick my ♥♥♥♥ in a meat grinder than attempt playing it again. Just wanted to add that.
maniu-16 Apr 11, 2013 @ 4:26am 
naked truth RO2 is the opposite RO1

the game has been addressed to new COD/BF series players conclusion ? this new cassual players wave fugk off hard on RO2 and still play on cod/bf3 and what hapend whit old guard RO1 fan like me also fugk off on this RO2 i find others games


the effect is that after four months of release RO2 game was alredy DEAD whit online number 300-500 in weekend night maximum 1000 players
[R]ScrubberDucky Apr 11, 2013 @ 4:38am 
Have you actually played RO2? Ever? While a lot of what you say is logically sound, just as much of that painful word-wall I just read through was either entirely wrong or felt like the author was desperately grasping for straws to supplement his already overly-meaty essay. Maybe both.

At the end of the day, unlocks and stat boosts only do so much in a 1v1 confrontation. Level 13 players are just as able to kill me, a level 92, using a maxed out class and a maxed out weapon, as anyone else. All it takes is one well-placed rifle shot. And while I do have an advantage over them, that's one benefit of realism shooters: One or two skillful shots with any weapon will still bring me down. It's just as much aiming skill and reaction time as RO1 was.

"Most of the RO community consists of kids and COD fanatics" is the part where I realized you'd never played the game once in your life. And if you had, it wasn't recently. Just earlier today I played with several mature, adult, and experienced players and had an excellent, satisfying and difficult game. We cooperated over voice and text chat, marked targets, spotted for the CO, and when the other team beat us, we laughed about it. These matched are rarer than I'd like, but I can say the same thing for RO1.

Come to think of it, I'm not even entirely sure why I'm trying to reply to this seriously. What you wrote was a wonderful example of an opinionated topic. You didn't even try to compare RO1 and RO2 from an objective standpoint, you came straight out of the gate with an obvious bias towards RO1. Because of that, it feels more like an angry rant from a person who's bitter that one came recieves more attention and players than another game, the latter of which he prefers more. If you hadn't fabricated so much, and had actually tried to showcase the strenghts and weeknesses of either one, it would've ended up better. It could've sparked some discussion, it could've convinced some folks to try the game. As it is, I don't know why anyone would take this seriously, much less waste their time reading it like I did.

Sweet blimey, there's even a reccommendation and a trailer for RO1 at the bottom, as if you gave up pretending entirely at some point.
Pvt.Erik Apr 11, 2013 @ 5:31am 
Originally posted by RScrubberDucky:
Have you actually played RO2? Ever? While a lot of what you say is logically sound, just as much of that painful word-wall I just read through was either entirely wrong or felt like the author was desperately grasping for straws to supplement his already overly-meaty essay. Maybe both.

At the end of the day, unlocks and stat boosts only do so much in a 1v1 confrontation. Level 13 players are just as able to kill me, a level 92, using a maxed out class and a maxed out weapon, as anyone else. All it takes is one well-placed rifle shot. And while I do have an advantage over them, that's one benefit of realism shooters: One or two skillful shots with any weapon will still bring me down. It's just as much aiming skill and reaction time as RO1 was.

"Most of the RO community consists of kids and COD fanatics" is the part where I realized you'd never played the game once in your life. And if you had, it wasn't recently. Just earlier today I played with several mature, adult, and experienced players and had an excellent, satisfying and difficult game. We cooperated over voice and text chat, marked targets, spotted for the CO, and when the other team beat us, we laughed about it. These matched are rarer than I'd like, but I can say the same thing for RO1.

Come to think of it, I'm not even entirely sure why I'm trying to reply to this seriously. What you wrote was a wonderful example of an opinionated topic. You didn't even try to compare RO1 and RO2 from an objective standpoint, you came straight out of the gate with an obvious bias towards RO1. Because of that, it feels more like an angry rant from a person who's bitter that one came recieves more attention and players than another game, the latter of which he prefers more. If you hadn't fabricated so much, and had actually tried to showcase the strenghts and weeknesses of either one, it would've ended up better. It could've sparked some discussion, it could've convinced some folks to try the game. As it is, I don't know why anyone would take this seriously, much less waste their time reading it like I did.

Sweet blimey, there's even a reccommendation and a trailer for RO1 at the bottom, as if you gave up pretending entirely at some point.


Main Dfiffrences between RO1 and RO2

- RO2 have smaller maps

- RO2 have more traditionally designed maps: they are designed more like a killing arena than an open map. Things are placed at convinient places and so on.

- 'Return to combat zone'- message happens frequently

- Spawn on Squadleader

- The game is highly unbalanced and your chance to win is dependent on which team you're on

- Recon plane (complete with RADAR)

- Unlocks

- Perks

- More HUD details. There is even a mini-map

- Spawnpoints closer to each others

- Focus on much faster gameplay

- Twitchshooting

- MG 'ramboing'

- Your characters randomly tell the enemy where you are by loudly screaming out curses

- Quick bandaging (In RO1 there was nothing like that)

- RO1 command system (which had over 20 commands) was replaced with a simple
command radial

- Action Mode to make the game even more appealing to the CoD crowd

- No bikes

- No halftracks

- 100% focus on interrior rather than quantity of vehicles leaving the game only with infantry
combat on mostly small maps

- MkB (there is no evidence that MkB was in Stalingrad, therefore, Tripwire made the
decision to ignore historical accuracy compared to before)

- Can't exit nor enter vehicles

- Can't attach or detach bayonetes

- Can't pick up or drop ammo pouches

- Can't open or close doors

- Enemy loadouts. It is just there to be convinient so that you wont have to kill an enemy to
get their weapon. In RO1, the only way go get enemy weapons was to TAKE them. You were not given anything.

Probably more to say, but I Think that is enough.

If this is BAD or GOOD is of course UP TO DEBATE. But I am not talking about bad or good, I am just making a simple conclusion here:

The game is dumbed down to a certain extent.

More over,

TWI said that the game would be more ''accessible'' but at the same time they promised the old fanbase what they wanted. Also, TWIs marketing made it even more obvious. ''Red Orchestra shoots for a broader audience'', ''Shellshocker: Why Red Orchestra will beat call of duty black ops''. Then the introduction of Action Mode. Of course, that is not to say that the game isn't improved. Better graphics, better sound (in certain cases: Sometimes you don't even hear a grenade that goes of behind a corner while fotsteps are louder in other cases), bullet penetration, and so on.

Not to mention the fact that the game was in a horrible state when it arrived. Realism mode was even more unrealistic than it is now, the game was full of glitches, bugs, and was extremely unstable. Then this horrible single-player campaign. It is not even worth to be called a ''campaign''. In RO1, that was called practise mode which is exactly what it is.

Have I played RO2?

Oh... dear. Yes. And I have played RO1. And RO: CA. Which, sorry to be judgemental.. you've probably never played.



And well, I don't see how people can DEFEND TWIs way of throwing mud at CoD when they obviously and openly embrace elements from CoD and other generic shooters. Its alright to throw mud at others if it means personal win... but if it does not, then its not ok..Their article in PC gamer was probably just an attempt to justify people to buy Rising Storm for RO2.

We could go on and on how different TWI is from other gaming companies but that does not change the situation does it?
maniu-16 Apr 11, 2013 @ 5:45am 
-cover system sounds like Gears of Wars or others games very annoying solution when you siting on treachn and want pick -up wepons your character stuck to the wall

-cant prone hear classic

-feeling movement this isnt ~~80kg soldiers whit 5/10kg wepons on hands this looks more like 30kg kenya marathon runner (also can run all map whit SPRINT WHEN YOUR STAMINA ENDS CHARACTERS DOSENT STOPS LIKE IN RO1 but sprint animations still work on but slowed)

-,,tanks battle,, no comments

-close quartes grind house stock TW maps are terrible
-0 customs maps server customs maps are 100x better than stock ,,huge,, open area whit multi front flank like bridge of druzhina myshkova cooldstel etc... playing 64 server on stock maps looks like sado maso or others quake 3 frag arena
Praxius Apr 11, 2013 @ 6:20am 
Blah blah.... All this crap again about how horrible RO2 is.... We get it. You liked RO1 more.

Then if you like RO1 so much, why don't you run along back to RO1 and it's discussion boards and leave the rest of us alone?

You liked RO1 more?

Well I liked the mod more than I liked RO1 and I like RO2 more than RO1.

You say you're an original RO vet but claim it doesn't make you any better, but if you believed that, you wouldn't have brought it up. And you're not an original vet because RO1 wasn't the original RO. I've been playing since the UT2004 mod days, yet even I am not an original RO vet because there was a mod before that one on UT2003.

So stop acting like you're the be all end all on what makes RO great and what doesn't. You have your opinion like everybody else, and it's just as worthless or valued as everybody else's.

People will like or dislike whatever they choose. You chose what you like and don't and nobody told you to do otherwise, so don't come all up in here with your omnipotent attitude & telling others what they should or should not play.

You say being an "Original" Vet (which you aren't) doesn't make you better.... So why are you trying to act like you are??

Fail.
SimpleJohn Apr 11, 2013 @ 6:21am 
RO1 is a pretty fantastic game and DH is even better, I tend to see RO1 and RO2 as two compleatly seperate games. They cant realy be compared, RO2 will never live up to what RO1 was. If you think about it RO2 is called heroes of stalingrad, basing it in stalingrad has basicaly doomed it to gritty close quater combat. Then of course turns fast paced by kids that dont play with tactics and want to level up their nagant rifle.

The only rly big open maps like RO1 are made by the community and some are even from RO1. But still they will never live up to RO1. Take Arad for example, any RO1 gamer will remember the massive map were they hid out in the forest with their panzerfaus to take down one of the many tanks in the battle, or rode heroicaly into hell on a motorbike. Well you know how you were saying that there are not many tanks on the maps in RO2, well.... They recreated arad for RO2, i got all excited, there were a ♥♥♥♥ load of tanks, but guess what! You cant bloody play as infantry!!!! So pretty much its either infantry with 2 tanks or a massive tank battle with no infantry. Why the ♥♥♥♥ cant it have infantry??!!!! Everything seems to be screwed up with RO2 jeez.

But basicaly, for Big open maps, quit complaining its useles, just play RO1 or DH and try get a whole heap of people too. If you like close combat, than play RO2 coz thats what it specializes in.
Who_Ate_Mah_Cake Apr 11, 2013 @ 6:30am 
I think that RO2 is far better than RO1 was.
Proteus Apr 11, 2013 @ 6:54am 
Originally posted by Pvt.Erik:
- Spawn on Squadleader

If he is still alive.
Squadleaders can fall as fast as normal soldiers (and frequently do) giving this not such a big advantage. (which is in contrast to War of the Roses, for example, where suad spawning is hugely imbalancing, as there people are rather hard to kill and squad leaders can be adequately protcted by their squad


Originally posted by Pvt.Erik:
- The game is highly unbalanced and your chance to win is dependent on which team you're on

While I have experienced unbalanced games, most games I played were fairly balanced (with some maps winning my team, some maps the other team)


Originally posted by Pvt.Erik:
- Unlocks

- Perks

Not a negative IMHO and, as Scrubber Ducky stated, they don´t make you a Superman.
You still fall as easy to enemy bullets that you would do without the unlocks.
It is all still dependant on your skills.

Originally posted by Pvt.Erik:
- MG 'ramboing'

Have you ever tried ramboing with an lMG?
I frequently play a german machine gunner and in the few cases where I was forced to use the lMG unsupported, while standing, the spread (despite only firing short bursts) was so high, that all of my shots missed, even against targets 30m away.
The only good was, that it occasionally suppressed the enemy long enough, so that friendlies nearby could come to my aid and kill the enemy.

I also never experienced anyone else ramboing with their MGs.
Instead they haste from cover to cover and go prone, properly setting up their MGs, as one would expect them to do.

Originally posted by Pvt.Erik:
- Action Mode to make the game even more appealing to the CoD crowd

Nevertheless the Realism Mode still is the most frequented mode and was, even during the free weekend, see here:

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=88995

Noone is forced to use the Action mode (I for my part always filter servers for Realism Mode only and always find servers with > 50 human players to join).
Therefore, if you don´t want to, you never ever have to get confronted with Action mode ;)

Also the numbers IMHO show suffieciently, that RO2 neither is a fail, nor carters only to the CoD kiddie crowd (which probably either wouldn´t go for realism mode beforehand, or would quit it after only a few gaes [unless they are able to adapt])

Originally posted by Pvt.Erik:
- No bikes

- No halftracks

I agree that this is a pity.

Originally posted by Pvt.Erik:

- 100% focus on interrior rather than quantity of vehicles leaving the game only with infantry
combat on mostly small maps

The vehicle interior increases immersion.
Also the vehicle damage model has been improved (speak, made more realistic) over RO1, after all I read.
Therefore, despite there being fewer vehicles, those vehicles are better represented in RO2.

Originally posted by Pvt.Erik:
- MkB (there is no evidence that MkB was in Stalingrad, therefore, Tripwire made the
decision to ignore historical accuracy compared to before)

I agreee that the MkB-42 in Stalingrad most probably is ahistorical

Originally posted by Pvt.Erik:
- Can't exit nor enter vehicles

- Can't attach or detach bayonetes

- Can't pick up or drop ammo pouches

- Can't open or close doors

I agree that this would be nice to have

Originally posted by Pvt.Erik:

- Enemy loadouts. It is just there to be convinient so that you wont have to kill an enemy to
get their weapon. In RO1, the only way go get enemy weapons was to TAKE them. You were not given anything.

Enemy loadouts (for a certain class) are accessible to people only after they reach Veteran Status in this class (that is class Level 4) and which also requires honor level 60.
I for my part still have not reached level 3 in my preferred class (i.e. machine gunner) after playing ~45 hours and still only am at honor level 34.
(although I have to say that I also often have played the other classes ... partially due to strategic reasoning (some maps aren´t good for machine gunners) and partially due to the fact that numbers of a certain class are limited per battle)
Due to the fact that the requirements for progression increase with every (class and honor-) level, I can surely assume to put at least another 100+ hours of gaming into RO2 till I reach Level 4 in machine gunner, as well as the required honor level of 60.
If one assumes an avg. of 1-2 hours of play on every day that I play RO2, that would mean an additional 50+ days playing RO2.

HugoPiglet Apr 11, 2013 @ 7:13am 
I agree.
RO2 is poorly optimized and developed. To make matters worse TWI offered no apology (little) or no fixes to RO2; instead blames their poor sales performance on the next gen of shooter players. That's unprofessional! I'm truly disappointed. It's been a year and a half since I bought this game and it's still broken with features missing. Where is the multiplayer co-op campaign I was promised? Oh right I guess TWI decided to scrap that, in favor of Rising Storm.
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