Starshina Patapov Aug 14, 2014 @ 10:02am
Herding Cat's as a Commander
Every map has a 'way to do it' in both offense and defense. Many of us 1500hr plus players tend to try to Command the rabble to get the mission done. I play to 'train' and suggest to new players how to do this game, and have no issue with troops learning the positions, everyone was a NOOB once, stop beating on them for trying, a good NCO will train his commander, not belittle him. Many actual real world Infantry concepts work well within game, and once understood by the troops make the game far more enjoyable for them. Then there are the STFU individuals who feel they alone can win the battle by doing thier own thing, to be expected, and ignored (muted).

The key to this game is strategic management of combat power, as well as the application of unit combat power in battle. Combat power on strategic map can be managed quite easily, it is all not attack, attack, but sometimes defend to bleed out enemy against your defense to increase your combat power and decrease his. On the issue of game battle combat power, Too many run straight into the fight "hey diddle diddle, charge down the middle" and wonder why it does not work. A base of fire unit, (mg's and tank) supporting and suppressing as the manuever units flank, works far better and far more often. And people smoke is not a cure all problems application and many times increases the difficulty in completing the mission. You 'blind' your support/supression element, your capping is now far harder. You smoke the flanks of the objective to prevent the bad guy from supporting his defense with fire, you do not want to smoke objective and fight in a cloud, usually far more casualities. Smoke does not make you 'bullet proof' and I instruct my MG's to fire belt high sweeping the smoke as the enemy is now announcing we are attacker here.

Learn how to interlock fields of fire, establish FPL's (final protective lines for you MG's) how to use Arty as a blocking force between the objective you are taking and the reinforcements heading to defend. Get away from the 'nose on nose' fights, take the enemy on from his 10 and 2, as he chrages foward blindly into your interlocking fires.

Use your tank as a support weapon, it is not an assault vehicle. It is a mobile bunker ready to supply mini arty (HE) as well as MG fire. A gunner in turret and a bow MG gunner increases the combat power of the tank 3 fold. Turret gunner/TC fires main gun and drives, bow gunner is just that, and a good TC will place tank so bow MG is optimized as he rotates and engages other threats. Also let your troops know that the tank needs engineer support. A good in game 'job' for the engineer class is to support and protect the tank, blow obsticles as well as escort the tank, protecting it from enemy close assault with your SMG. What kills 90% of tanks, AT grenades, as the tank operates blind and alone usually until tank figures it out.

COMMUNICATION: This is a Commanders prime talent, Keeping your troops informed. You are your troops eyes and ears as you scan your map. You keep your troops informed on enemy movements, your job is on the map, not throwing smoke and being 'super trooper' up front. You can easily 'kill' over 100 with well placed and timed artillery strikes and never fire your personal weapon, or see and enemy soldier. When you fire artilery you announce where it is falling by grid and numberpad reference, and 'rounds out' to let any friendlies in area there is incoming. And if the enemy is firing artillery your announce 'incoming' and it is HIS artillery so your troops know and can react earlier than the impact time. Try and give a grid/numberpad as soon as possible. And keep your troops informed on you plan and progress, and encourage them rather than belittling them when not if things go wrong.
Remember in Combat your enemy seldom follows your plan, and it is not a matter of, if things will go wrong, but when

Finally and to the point, this balance debate is crap, the game can n ot be balanced for there are too many variables, you make the best of the situation as they are created. If you want 'balance' play checkers, if you play a combat game there will be good and bad players altering the 'balance' during everygame. There is NO map out there that either side can not 'win' at any given time, it is the troops and the co-operation level of those troops that determines the battle, NOT the MAP.
Last edited by Starshina Patapov; Aug 15, 2014 @ 12:43pm
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Bad Wolf [24pz] Aug 14, 2014 @ 12:48pm 
Very informative but i would suggest you tagged this as a guide instead of a discuision so that it doesnt get buried in 2 hours
jackx Aug 14, 2014 @ 1:52pm 
If only there wasn't an unlock progression that had people overly focussed on kills/score - organizing teamplay would be so much easier.

Even the most basic teamwork often falls apart because as soon as one player engages the enemy, nearby players will want their part of that opportunity to kill/score.

Long before it comes to following orders and implementing specific plans and tactics, the foundations are being undermined, and fire control/disciplien tends to be non-existant.

I have no problem watching an approach against a potential threat while my teammate gets the kills in his firezone, but in terms of score and unlocks,t he game punishes this kind of behaviour, and the same goes for following (attack) ordres when everyone else hesitates to do so because being the first to move and taking point is a hig risk/low reward job.

Better to let the rifleman lead, and mow down the defendres once they reveal themselves with your smg/semi/assault rifle, then wait for the rifleman and the enemy to respawn and do it all over again. :/

Bad Wolf [24pz] Aug 14, 2014 @ 2:04pm 
Originally posted by jackx:
If only there wasn't an unlock progression that had people overly focussed on kills/score - organizing teamplay would be so much easier.

Even the most basic teamwork often falls apart because as soon as one player engages the enemy, nearby players will want their part of that opportunity to kill/score.

Long before it comes to following orders and implementing specific plans and tactics, the foundations are being undermined, and fire control/disciplien tends to be non-existant.

I have no problem watching an approach against a potential threat while my teammate gets the kills in his firezone, but in terms of score and unlocks,t he game punishes this kind of behaviour, and the same goes for following (attack) ordres when everyone else hesitates to do so because being the first to move and taking point is a hig risk/low reward job.

Better to let the rifleman lead, and mow down the defendres once they reveal themselves with your smg/semi/assault rifle, then wait for the rifleman and the enemy to respawn and do it all over again. :/

I am still waiting for the day that supression will be getting one more points than kills and that weapons will level up with supression
jackx Aug 15, 2014 @ 2:07am 
Originally posted by Bad Wolf Back From Holidays:

I am still waiting for the day that supression will be getting one more points than kills and that weapons will level up with supression

That'd be nice, but it'd still encourage the teammate that should be watching my back/another sector to abandon that and add their fire to my own in order to get points... and it would do nothing about objective captures, where the problem si that the person first into the cap is usually the one least likely to be alive by the end of it, whereas the one who runs in at the last second takes no real risks, but gets the full reward.

I don't really care about my level, or my unlocks, and the stats and upgrades tend to generally not be a decisive factor in combat, but unfortunately, they tend to have a large impact on how people play, and usually not for the better.

You can ignore the unlocks, but you can't avoid being affected by the players who don't, and make selfish score/fkillpoint-gathering their priority.
Where the game should encourage trying to keep yourself and your mates alive, it ends up encouraging staying alive at the expense of your mates instead. :(

/rant
Last edited by jackx; Aug 15, 2014 @ 2:08am
Pistolero Aug 15, 2014 @ 2:18pm 
Herding cats is good enough as a start, but one must never forget even cat herding is possible to a degree if one works at it (trust me on that). One major fallacy in the discourse is the role of team leader with smoke and the assault. Arty and recon are functions that go off every several minutes; one ought be able to direct and inform (i.e. "command" in game terms) without having to stand still or hide; so with one-third of the team's smoke capacity (2 of 6) and the fact that players do not respawn on the TL, but do on squad leaders, team leaders should in fact frequently be leading assaults. If they die, most likely they will respawn that much closer to a radio anyway. (And worrying about chit cost is total nonsense. Spend the dough. Kick ♥♥♥ and make them worry about chits.) RADIO HUGGERS ARE NOT GOOD TEAM LEADERS.

I remember a game of "Darkest Hour" some years back, one of the British/German beach scenarios. Deep in the shadows of my chosen doorway my MG42 was ready to separate bad guys at the waist as they came in sight, and lo, 'ere long they did; a real team of them coming at me from 3 different directions, and none of them giving me any kind of shot at all. I ran out the back door and kept running to the last waypoint. That 'real' team cut through us like butter.

Best I can see, since they don't obey orders for spit, the best option is to lead by example. As a squad leader if you want them in a capzone, be there yourself. As a team leader if you want a critical position taken, let it be known verbally and boisterously, then go lead it yourself.

This is not real combat, it is a game. In real combat if it takes a week to go six feet without losing men, sometimes you take a week. (Marines operate differently and definitely more aggressively because their supporting Navy is a highly vulnerable target.) So be gamey, but the best matches are those where TLs and SLs actually function and lead while the rest of the grunts actually follow their leaders.

Cuddle Bunny Aug 17, 2014 @ 1:56am 
If you're a squad leader you better have a mic, and you better be barking orders.

Agreed with the "radio hugger" comment, there's plenty of time to do both jobs. Get out there and smoke.
Starshina Patapov Aug 17, 2014 @ 4:06am 
Just remember as well 'smoke' can hurt as well as help your mission, it is not a cure all for failed assault tactics. Once again you smoke the flanks of your objective to blind those supporting fires of the objective, and do not blind your supporting fires on the objective with smoke. YOU DO NOT FIGHT IN "THE CLOUD".
Sir Tobias Aug 18, 2014 @ 5:31pm 
no such thing as a Boot Camp, the best learning tool is the experience that you bring from the Battlefield...

BUT if you want to give them the basics, that is Fine... otherwise don't interfer with their Learning Ways... a Real Teacher only teaches you how to use the Fishing Rod, not how to catch the Fish effectively.
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Date Posted: Aug 14, 2014 @ 10:02am
Posts: 8