Wild/Non-faction ancient destroyers

[XorUnison]

So I already mentioned that I, due to choosing a ship which didn't fit my playing style, was easily defeated by a level 16 ancient hezog destroyer (wild/non-faction) while being level 21 in another thread. Back than I thought it was just my lack of skill and the right ship for being beaten by an enemy of such a low level, and while that might be true, throughout my recent plays I noticed something.
So, to make my point clear, enemies in the game have varying stages of strength:
Normal/Expert/Veteran/Elite/Legend/Boss
With the colors:
White/Green/Yellow/Orange/Red/Lavender
(correct me if I'm wrong here)

My ship is strong enough to engage with 2 Boss type enemies which are 2 or 3 levels below me at the same time without even taking any much damage. However if one ancient destroyer comes along (which are being displayed as only veteran, 3 stages below) it can easily punch through my entire defense with just 2 attacks, the 3rd one would be fatal.
When I had to rate the enemies I encounter in terms of strength, those ancient destroyers would come much much further than the boss type enemies which is confusing as they are obviously labelled as inferior.

So as far as I can tell, ancient destroyers...
...yield mediocre to high mission rewards (a little less than a boss type enemy)
...are being displayed as mediocre (again much less than a boss type enemy)
...can actually deal tremendous damage (much MORE than a boss type enemy)
...also deal strong damage to marines (definitely more than a boss type enemy)
...can also withstand serious damage (somewhat more than a boss type enemy)

This doesn't add up. They're the only reason I'm constantly playing on easy.
As another comparison, the faction ancient destroyers aren't any real threat either.

Since some people here are playing hardcore and stuff, am I doing something wrong or are these really simply bomb-from-afar-or-run-away enemies?

Edit: Well, now they're the only reason I don't play on hard, the point with mislabelling still counts though.

[Tuidjy]

I wrote quite a bit on this subject in an old thread.

So I'll just recap here: Player ships are put together in different ways. Enemy ships have different types, and roll different perks when they are generated. Depending on the matchup, some enemies can be devastating.

For example, a missile type enemy can roll explosive specialist and assassin, and be generated against a player ship that relies only on armor. One critical is likely to be fatal.

So a superboss can be a lot less of a threat to your ship than a simple elite who rolled just the right perks. Ancient destroyers are each their own type, and when they are elite, they roll perks. If the type matches your ship weakness, and the perks are the right (wrong?) ones, you better watch out. And there is a mine ancient, and a missile ancient, and a laser ancient, etc... a strength for every vulnerability.

This said, you can get to level 100 with hardcore, command zero ships, and kill every enemy you encounter. But you will have to pay close attention, and you will have to prepare for some fights, up to and including switching components.

[XorUnison]

Sure, but those ancient destroyers are always only veteran, never ever higher, or not yet at least. As for the rewards, I noticed that while they give laughable amounts of XP and money, they do give a lot of fear and legend points, so I have to take back that point at least.

But just 30 minutes ago... There was 1, and just one single Hezog destroyer which destroyed 7 or 8 faction planets. In something like 4 minutes. Those planets were fully guarded, no infighting or any much monsters either. He also killed me with 2 shots (through a strong shield, a good armor and 40% damage reduction). On easy. Admittedly part of the reason I play on easy is simply because the build system is hard to master, and in terms of that I barely started. Making some strategy necessary by having really bad enemies once in a while is cool as well, but those ancient destroyers are always hellishly bad, never saw an exception here. It just makes me ignore any danger unless there's Veteran Ancient Destroyer written on it somewhere.

While the hard challenge is cool for me, having a single ship eradicate an entire system (in which I just nearly unlocked a new subrace) in a matter of less than 4 minutes somewhat ridiculously unrealistic, however I try to see it.

On the other hand though, since the planets immediately turned Hezog upon his attacks (which I learned to hate with a passion) and the fact I immediately cleaned them up it counted as me genociding them 3 times in a row, which led to a fear victory within the same 4 minutes. So yeah, there was an upside to this as well :)

Either way, I appreciate your input.

[Tuidjy]

There is something to keep in mind.

"Easy" just means that the monsters are of a level lower than your ship. In Drox levels are a lot less of a measure of power than in pretty much any game I can think of. A level 50 normal ship is significantly more powerful than a level 100 Command Zero ship, assuming that both are adventuring in sector levels 50-75, and thus only have access to stat 75-115 components.

So if your ship does not have the stats/crew to use level 25 equipment, it does not matter whether it's higher level than a level 25 enemy. It's weaker. (Generally speaking. You can still make a pretty decent ship even if your equipment is lower level, it's just much harder.)

[XorUnison]

Hm, I knew that the levels aren't that significant, not however that it went that far, thanks for the numbers. I could figure the levels were not so important and the build very important after I got a stealth device and a tesla leach, giving me all at once much much more firepower and an increased chance to survive without any real drawbacks.

I'm really getting to like the game, I'd love to see a sequel that addresses those points that could be vastly improved, like story.

[Tuidjy]

Yes, the build is what matters.

My best ship has literally 20 times the attack, 6 times the armor, 10 times the DPS, etc. of my best Command Zero ship (Both are level 100 hardcore). And on top of that the normal ship has a fighter escort, a cloaking field, and shields (the Command Zero does not)

Even if two builds are both pretty good, they may be vulnerable to different enemies. As a simple example, armor-only ships are weak against Claws (missiles) while shields-only ships are weak against Thunders (EM). A more complex example is a ship that relies on defense being very weak against an enemy that rolled attack bonus perks, while a ship that relies on resistances would not care.

This game is complex. I've been coming back to it for years, and I am still finding stuff out.

[XorUnison]

Yep, but I like complex things. Well I wish that some more things in the game would be complex, like relation manipulation, but hey it's a start. I also played with the thought of just filling in my own story with imagination like I think you mentioned somewhere, but if I do that, then only some time later.

Since you play for a long time, maybe you can answer one burning question I had. Is there a way to fire all available weapons with one button, that is not having to press the buttons of all available weapons simultaneously? The Tesla Leach allows me to theoretically use as many weapons as I want to after all.

[Tuidjy]

Is there a way to fire all available weapons with one button, that is not having to press the buttons of all available weapons simultaneously

No, not in the game. Many mice allow you to set up a macro to do so, and I had done it once upon the time, when I had ships with more than three weapons. Nowadays I never do, so it is not much of an issue for me anymore, but the topic has been discussed many, many times.

[XorUnison]

Origineel geplaatst door Tuidjy:

Is there a way to fire all available weapons with one button, that is not having to press the buttons of all available weapons simultaneously

No, not in the game. Many mice allow you to set up a macro to do so, and I had done it once upon the time, when I had ships with more than three weapons. Nowadays I never do, so it is not much of an issue for me anymore, but the topic has been discussed many, many times.

Hm, yeah I found topics about it, but didn't try to search before because, well steams search function failed me a few times to often, thanks for the information. Either I'll take the same approach or I'll build something up myself.

[Megaflux]

firing all guns on 1 button is a bad idea, really not worth cheating at the game to accomplish either. much MUCH better to fire the right gun at the right time than to just spam them all and deplete energy.

[Tuidjy]

In general, yes, mounting more guns is not as good as maximizing a lesser number of them.

But keep in mind that there are builds that rely on stacking debuffs, and those often mount five or six weapons of different kinds, many of which need to be fired just once every ten-fifteen seconds. Without pausing, or a 17 button mouse, that's a pain.

Also, there are some weapons that work amazingly well if you fire a number of them as fast as you can. Shockwaves in particular are great at this.

And finally, there are many builds for which energy is not generated, but leeched. Those do not need to make each shot count by any means.

[XorUnison]

Origineel geplaatst door Tuidjy:

And finally, there are many builds for which energy is not generated, but leeched. Those do not need to make each shot count by any means.

Exactly, and right now that's the best build I can see myself getting into. Might of course change anytime later in the game. It's not cheating either, where would be the fun in that.

I also happen to have a bunch of Artifact guns around the same level, all more or less good for my current level, so yeah, firing all of them sounds a like a good idea to me.

[Megaflux]

Origineel geplaatst door KNC:

Origineel geplaatst door Tuidjy:

And finally, there are many builds for which energy is not generated, but leeched. Those do not need to make each shot count by any means.

Exactly, and right now that's the best build I can see myself getting into. Might of course change anytime later in the game. It's not cheating either, where would be the fun in that.

I also happen to have a bunch of Artifact guns around the same level, all more or less good for my current level, so yeah, firing all of them sounds a like a good idea to me.

um, if you are using a third party application to do it it IS cheating. be it your keyboard profiler or an auto-clicker.

but then again im a purist and see even looking at guides as cheating.

[Tuidjy]

I am of the opinion that in single player games, as long as you are enjoying yourself, everything goes. This of course does not apply at all for multiplier.

While I no longer use macros for Drox (I do have very mice mouse, though) I constantly use a program I have written myself to keep track of the way my actions should affect the races of the galaxy. It greatly increases my enjoyment of the game.

[Megaflux]

Origineel geplaatst door Tuidjy:

I am of the opinion that in single player games, as long as you are enjoying yourself, everything goes. This of course does not apply at all for multiplier.

While I no longer use macros for Drox (I do have very mice mouse, though) I constantly use a program I have written myself to keep track of the way my actions should affect the races of the galaxy. It greatly increases my enjoyment of the game.

thats a dangerous line to tread, because when people think cheating is "fun" developers start making games where cheating is the norm. just like when developers make difficult games (example:ninja gaiden black) and nobody buys them they stop making them (or atleast stop making them difficult).

even in single player i wont cheat though, if i suck so profoundly at a game that the thought even crosses my mind i would simply play something else and admit defeat. never happens, but that would be the outcome. i use really expensive hardware too, just not for macros (hydrea, orbweaver, AND nostromo drivers are all on my machine plus the mmo7 mouse).. more for comfort really. i am NOT with the "if its fun its ok" mentality AT ALL. i may find it "fun" to kill 12 year olds and dispose of them in the proper receptacles (dumpsters) and THAT wouldnt be ok, so why is cheating at games "ok"? too extreme an example? perhaps, but i think its "fun" to offend people and that makes it "ok" to say it right? shame valve doesnt agree..

just to drive the point home a bit more.. saying there are BUILDS deicated to leeching energy and firing all weapons at once is to say there are builds dedicated to cheating (and not just the fact that people are LOOKING UP said builds) since you CANT fire all weapons at once without cheating. not that these (soldak) games have ever been particularly against cheating (like equiping gear to equip other gear and then removing the gear so the other gear stays equipped despite the character in question NOT having the appropriate stats) so clearly they arent TRYING to stop people from cheating (or un-suported gear should be negated or remove automaticly). now we see that the industry itself is buckling, they ARE allowing cheating and exploits through for the sake of keeping it "fun". a shame really... i used to LOVE a game called blur, unfortunately activision/blizzard bastardized it and while the servers are still up the only ones playing it are the cheaters.. nobody to report them to or anything.. real "fun" stuff.

[XorUnison]

Origineel geplaatst door Megaflux:

just to drive the point home a bit more.. saying there are BUILDS deicated to leeching energy and firing all weapons at once is to say there are builds dedicated to cheating (and not just the fact that people are LOOKING UP said builds) since you CANT fire all weapons at once without cheating. not that these (soldak) games have ever been particularly against cheating (like equiping gear to equip other gear and then removing the gear so the other gear stays equipped despite the character in question NOT having the appropriate stats) so clearly they arent TRYING to stop people from cheating (or un-suported gear should be negated or remove automaticly). now we see that the industry itself is buckling, they ARE allowing cheating and exploits through for the sake of keeping it "fun". a shame really... i used to LOVE a game called blur, unfortunately activision/blizzard bastardized it and while the servers are still up the only ones playing it are the cheaters.. nobody to report them to or anything.. real "fun" stuff.

^
You're not driving the point home, you're driving it too far.

1. You CAN fire all weapons at once, be it a macro or not, you can (theoretically) always resort to just push any number of buttons at once, if one device doesn't cut it, use more. If you've ever seriously used a keyboard in your life though, you will know though that after you press a certain amount of buttons the rest will stop reacting. Actually pressing certain combinations will make only certain buttons stop reacting before others. If I fire 4 weapons (say 1+2+3+4 which would be totally realistic, because that is how the game works) try to move forward (W) than I can't even turn the damn ship (A or D) because the keyboard will only submit 5 buttons at once. Which would the equivalent of handicapping myself, or anti-cheating if you want. And everytime an enemy dies I have to repress all buttons, that's just random button mashing, not even playing anymore. I'm being limited by the hardware, not the game.
By using a macro I'm not cheating, in this case I'm actually making it possible to play the game properly and normally in the first place, because without the macro I can't.

Imagine following scene.
Commander: "Fire all weapons, then turn around, cloak and retreat!"
Weapons officer: "But commander, we can't turn around when firing all weapons, we're pressing too many buttons!"
Commander: "Er... What? Our ship is state of the art war technology, and you're telling me it can't handle more than 5 buttons on the entire bridge at once?"

That should sound ridiculous, right? It is ridiculous.

2. Leeching builds are not cheating. I mean, the game has components which leech energy, that's what they do and nothing else. How is using a component like any other in the game cheating? These components are called "Tesla Leecher" and "Energy Leecher", if leeching is cheating in your opinion, what shoud those components do then?
And just to be really clear here, there are actually much more components which leech something, only in different ways. Like the "Harvester" which leeches energy as well, just not per shot, but rather per kill. Or the "Scavanger" which leeches health and armor upon any kill.

3. While I know what you mean with these component swap thingies to cheat, I do not use these tricks. I noticed that the cloak stays active even after I remove the component, but that was more a mistake. That being said once discovered the cloak is gone and to reestabish it I have to put in the comoponent again, which takes time, during which I'll likely be killed. Also at least Drox Operative constantly seems to check for requirements. A component will not be removed when you lose the requirements, but it will be degraded to decoration.
You're also being actively demotivated from switching components for any kind of possible cheating by having a set time it takes for a new component to become active.

That being said, I didn't really (that is on purpose) cheat ever again since years ago, when I still was a child. And your definition of cheating is simply and completely wrong. An aimbot is cheating. Invulnerability is cheating. Everything that raises your stats by means not intended in the game is cheating. Everything that lowers enemy stats by means not intended in the game is cheating.
Using what the game gives you is playing the game, not cheating.

I have used ONLY and absolutely ONLY things the game offers me, and there is no small red text on any components saying: "But if you use this, you're a cheater!"

I understand your point, and I also don't like cheating (well there is one exception, called debugging) but you're missing the point by a mile here.

I'm looking forward to logical and constructive answers to the points made in this post.