Cloudbuilt > General Discussions > Topic Details
FlamboyantMongoose Jul 20, 2014 @ 10:18am
combat and wall run problems
the game has issues with distinguishing between a wall run and a wall climb and combined with awkward wall jumping is one of two of the biggest obstacles toward enjoyment

the other is the existence of a plethora of enemies who can also ohko you because of the knockback when hit and the fact that all you get is this awkward mega man style arm cannon that is insufficient for the job

the potential in this game is staggering and i want to really like it but these two major issues just make it an ultimate exercise in frustration

the worrisome aspect is that when i look at feedback for this game the two issues i raised are the two most common criticisms of the game since it was released several months ago and yet they still exist

are these obstacles toward this game being great going to be removed eventually?

other frustrations, like the level design being labyrinths that require wandering around until you randomly find a way forward, disappear with experience
these two problems are intrinsic to the game unfortunately
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Wobs23 Jul 20, 2014 @ 10:49am 
Well the issue of enemies was actually address recently with the addition of five new levels that contains absolutely no enemies. This is the path that branches straight left from the intro level.

The wall running thing is slightly different. The best way to control your wall run is to control your momentum going into the run. Lateral momentum translates to a wall runwhil vertical translates to a vertical wall run (duh). The other tip I can give is to point your camera in the way you want to go, in a slight exaggerated manner. That really helped me gain control over my movement.

This was typed on my phone so please excuse any spelling, grammar, or formatting mistakes. Good luck! :)
Zanarias Jul 20, 2014 @ 11:14am 
Wall movements are actually very predictable once you understand how it works. The game prioritizes your movement direction (WASD) first, followed by camera angle, which is handled by about a 90 degree angle (45 degrees in favor of looking directly at the wall is vertical, 45 degrees in favor of looking along the wall is horizontal, something like that). I don't think they're taught too well upfront, but this should really be one of the easiest components of the game to grasp the basics of.

There should be some sort of "No Enemies" mode just by virtue of how many people have requested it. However, the main issue is that people seem to believe that just because the game gives you a weapon means you have to use it in every engagement, which is not the case. It's less of a combat tool and more of a path exposing tool; you use it to pick off particular enemies, so you don't even have to deal with the other 10 enemies wandering around.

And for the labyrinth thing, well, all the levels are pretty open and giant. If you don't look around first then I guess you could get lost, but following walls pretty much always takes you to the exit, and there's the giant light beam things that give you a hint too. This seems more like a case of personal tunnel vision, but I can't be sure.

Sorry, I don't mean to just dismiss your concerns and I'm obviously biased since I play the game a lot. I think the issues you and others have with the game come from an initial misunderstanding of the game (it's not -just- a parkour game), an unintuitive control scheme, a subpar tutorial, and the fact that it's just outright difficult.

None of this is your or anybody else's fault, and this is all just my personal opinion. Some things really do need updated or made more apparent, but others are just cases of not spending enough time with the game in general.
Last edited by Zanarias; Jul 20, 2014 @ 11:19am
Epikas Jones Jul 20, 2014 @ 5:14pm 
Originally posted by FlamboyantMongoose:
the game has issues with distinguishing between a wall run and a wall climb and combined with awkward wall jumping is one of two of the biggest obstacles toward enjoyment

the other is the existence of a plethora of enemies who can also ohko you because of the knockback when hit and the fact that all you get is this awkward mega man style arm cannon that is insufficient for the job

the potential in this game is staggering and i want to really like it but these two major issues just make it an ultimate exercise in frustration

the worrisome aspect is that when i look at feedback for this game the two issues i raised are the two most common criticisms of the game since it was released several months ago and yet they still exist

are these obstacles toward this game being great going to be removed eventually?

other frustrations, like the level design being labyrinths that require wandering around until you randomly find a way forward, disappear with experience
these two problems are intrinsic to the game unfortunately

I agree those are my biggest problems with the game too, specially when you have to do one of those run up a wall sideways then flip around 180 to another wall and keep doing it over and over, that plus the top 10 spots in most leaderboards is someone either heavily exploiting or hacking, I watched a youtube of a guy who just "flew" from the start to finish disregarding the ENTIRE level, and others skip half the level by doing glitchy (shouldn't be possible) air jumps that propel them 5x farther/higher than it should.
Last edited by Epikas Jones; Jul 20, 2014 @ 5:28pm
Kaysick Jul 20, 2014 @ 10:26pm 
Originally posted by Epikas Jones:
I agree those are my biggest problems with the game too, specially when you have to do one of those run up a wall sideways then flip around 180 to another wall and keep doing it over and over, that plus the top 10 spots in most leaderboards is someone either heavily exploiting or hacking, I watched a youtube of a guy who just "flew" from the start to finish disregarding the ENTIRE level, and others skip half the level by doing glitchy (shouldn't be possible) air jumps that propel them 5x farther/higher than it should.

They aren't exploits, glitches, or hacks. The devs know about almost all the techniques we do to get these fast times and there's even a guide here on Steam called "Hardcore Parkour: Understanding Movement" that explains in detail how we do these techniques. The game's selling point is freedom of movement and we aren't disregarding the level. We're going our own route to get the quickest time. We had to understand the level's layout to try and figure out an optimal route.

I've literally had Gafgar in my stream multiple times, the programmer and creative director of Cloudbuilt, and he hasn't questioned the "5x farther/higher" jumps we do.
Epikas Jones Jul 21, 2014 @ 3:36am 
Yes it is EXPLOITING if you/others can do some bulls*** MEGA jump/"flying" that not originally part of the games original design plan, I don't know what kind of macro-bulls***/glitch or whatever is going on but it's not anywhere near legit if it cant be done with the default controls on a consistent basis with ease, not to mention when I see it happen it looks as if theres only about half the energy consumption if you wana know what I'm talking about jus go look at chezdas youtube, 90% of the levels he just "flys" to the end magically not running out of energy and gaining at least 5x the normal height from jump-boosts, and I'm just using him as an example I've watched even worse, The game is not designed so you can just skip 75% of the level by "flying" It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know what is and isn't legit and part of the design. theres a difference in finding a short route and bypassing 75% of the level through a move only a select few do, (I wonder why),

Talking with the dev and no one "mentioning" the exploit means nothing, He didn't feel like brining it up and either did you, So what. Far as him saying nothing It would probably be a huge process of him resetting all the leaderboards/ and or trying to sort out the people with the more "legit times" and I doubt he would ever do that because he would have no idea who was and wasn't legit unless he had a team of 100 people going though videos of every ones runs, even if the videos did exist for everyone, but in reality No one but a triple-A studio would go to that much work to find out what who was legit. far to time consuming.

Is is not in way shape or form "legit" so drop it.
Last edited by Epikas Jones; Jul 21, 2014 @ 3:37am
Gafgar  [developer] Jul 21, 2014 @ 3:36am 
There is a lot of depth to the controls, and you can do some pretty amazing things when you learn them.

Though, there is a game mode called "Super charged" where you will be able to break almost everything, as it gives you a lot more energy to play with. Around the release there was also a bug with super charged that literally allowed you to fly if you knew how to exploit it, and that way you could truly disregard the whole level. But that has been patched a long time.

Concerning the wallrunning, we know it's a bit hard to get in to in the beginning and we try to teach it as much as we can in the tutorial, but there is a limit to how much information people can take in in a limited time, so to understand it more you will need experience. We have also improved some aspects of the wallrunning and made some aspects more forgiving. But there is also a limit to how much we can do there, as the game is live and have very skilled and active player. We can't start to change around everything, as it would destroy what they have learned, break the leader boards, and potentially require changes in the level design.

We have a few things in mind that we might try to look in to further when it comes to wallrunning, but we will always try to not alienate anyone or break anything.

Concerning the combat, there is skill to it. In the beginning when you don't know your enemies, your weapon and abilities, the combat can be slow and hard, but there is techniques to it. Many times the combat can almost be more like a puzzle with several different solutions instead of just a shootout. We understand that there are a lot of people that really hates the shield that some enemies use though.. and that is something we MIGHT look into adjusting a little bit, as long as we deem it safe for not breaking any leader boards or similar.

And yeah, I would almost like for beginners to compare the game more with mega man than mirrors edge or something similar, that I have heard so many times. As just like mega man, the first time though will be mostly about just surviving, and not so much about speed. Speed comes more and more the better you get at it. That's one aspect we wanted for the game, that you will by time remove your own limitations, the game wont change, it's you who will change and get better.

As for the levels, they are not supposed to be a straight line to the finish. You will have to investigate and search at times, though we leave a lot of clues for the most part, and all the light pillars for checkpoints and the goal is there to help you out to get a basic understanding of your goal. As all levels have the same objective, we will not leave you to guessing too much. But I guess it's also down to what you expect the game to be. We have seen some players that expected a game where you would never have to stop and think, but that was never the kind of game Clodubuilt was intended to be.

I do appreciate the feedback, and we will try to polish up some aspects of the game that we are not entirely happy with, but we won't probably do any ground breaking or fundamental changes.

I hope you can stick with it a little longer, and if you do, I hope you can find it enjoyable. But it might maybe require you to change your mindset a little bit? I don't really know.
Last edited by Gafgar; Jul 21, 2014 @ 3:38am
Epikas Jones Jul 21, 2014 @ 3:55am 
I'm glad you're here developer, I'm going to link a -prime example- of what i'm arguing with kaystick about. At 6 seconds into this video, can you tell me if you intended for this jump height /velocity exploit to be part of the game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl-kQY8W1p0

And again at 14 seconds into this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w6FqQGqrsE

Boost jump Simply does NOT go that high, I've mastered the game and im at least rank 50 or higher on every normal leaderboard, that is by far the most exploiting thing I've ever seen
Last edited by Epikas Jones; Jul 21, 2014 @ 4:11am
Gafgar  [developer] Jul 21, 2014 @ 4:25am 
I see nothing weird in those videos. The boost jumps are a bit more powerful than we anticipated, but I see nothing wrong with it. The one think I don't like in these videos are the small edge that you can grab on to at 10 sec in to the first video. That was not anticipated to be grab-able, and that small concrete section was not intended to be runnable on that thin side there. But that is a miss in the level design, not the games mechanics.

I personally like to run the levels without those largest shortcuts, but I also do these kind of shortcuts now and then.

The initial philosophy for the design was that we created game play mechanics that we though was interesting, and then we started designing levels, and never wanted to break any of the initial rules we created. Throughout the process of development we figured out new techniques, and tricks we could do with the already existing controls, and instead of removing, we tried to build upon them and make them interesting. Sometimes we added or changed things, but for the most part it was just trying to balance mechanics, without breaking the already existing level design, or making it too hard or boring for players that had yet to learn all the tricks... though, that is a very hard balance...

There were SOME larger balance changes we wanted to make, but couldn't, as it would impact too much level design too late in the development, but I don't think it breaks the game in any way, it just changed it a little.

Then after that, players started to master the boosted dash jumps, and that it was noticeably stronger than we had thought, but as I said, I don't view it as a problem, and there are other ways to play as well. It is nothing we forces on to you.

I hope that helps to explain our/my view on the state of the game.
Last edited by Gafgar; Jul 21, 2014 @ 4:25am
Zanarias Jul 21, 2014 @ 4:48am 
Soooooo with that settled, it seems like you need to put in a bit more work if you feel like actually mastering this game.

I don't like plugging my own stuff, but it really seems like you need it:
http://youtu.be/ATaHmhtdiZI
Last edited by Zanarias; Jul 21, 2014 @ 4:49am
Epikas Jones Jul 21, 2014 @ 4:49am 
Originally posted by Gafgar:
I see nothing weird in those videos. The boost jumps are a bit more powerful than we anticipated, but I see nothing wrong with it. The one think I don't like in these videos are the small edge that you can grab on to at 10 sec in to the first video. That was not anticipated to be grab-able, and that small concrete section was not intended to be runnable on that thin side there. But that is a miss in the level design, not the games mechanics.

I personally like to run the levels without those largest shortcuts, but I also do these kind of shortcuts now and then.

The initial philosophy for the design was that we created game play mechanics that we though was interesting, and then we started designing levels, and never wanted to break any of the initial rules we created. Throughout the process of development we figured out new techniques, and tricks we could do with the already existing controls, and instead of removing, we tried to build upon them and make them interesting. Sometimes we added or changed things, but for the most part it was just trying to balance mechanics, without breaking the already existing level design, or making it too hard or boring for players that had yet to learn all the tricks... though, that is a very hard balance...

There were SOME larger balance changes we wanted to make, but couldn't, as it would impact too much level design too late in the development, but I don't think it breaks the game in any way, it just changed it a little.

Then after that, players started to master the boosted dash jumps, and that it was noticeably stronger than we had thought, but as I said, I don't view it as a problem, and there are other ways to play as well. It is nothing we forces on to you.

I hope that helps to explain our/my view on the state of the game.

I can't believe you just said that, thats like at least 5x higher than a normal boost jump, there is no special tricks about a boost jump, you simply jump and boost at almost the same time thats all there is to it unless theres an exploit involved, and what you said about you didn't intend for that small thin wall to be ran ontop of in the first video yes I already figured that, and it proves my point because you guys would of used that shortcut if the boost was that high in the first place, it makes no sense, who wouldn't take that route if boost really went that high as it skips nearly 85% of the level, and there would also be 100's of people with 30 sec times on that level, which there is not. I should make a video to show what mine does because with the jump height mine gives that would NEVER be possible.

I have a question though, have you ever at one point nerfed *anything* that would involve getting that much height since release?
_________

Zanarias//:Overcast:
"Soooooo with that settled, it seems like you need to put in a bit more work if you feel like actually mastering this game.

I don't like plugging my own stuff, but it really seems like you need it:"

Don't give me that sht zan, I know what I'm doing and yes I HAVE mastered the game. Im not some baddie gamer, I get top leaderboards In every game I own. Be a little more respectful to your peers specially when you know nothing about them, Thanks.
Last edited by Epikas Jones; Jul 21, 2014 @ 5:02am
Zanarias Jul 21, 2014 @ 5:02am 
Did you watch the video or not?

Because if you didn't you explicitly are being a "baddie gamer" by actively ignoring a permitted gameplay mechanic. You don't have to like it or perform it yourself, but failing to acknowledge it is your own shortcoming, and that does not make everyone else who does use it some sort of exploiting hacker.

The developer outright said it's valid; what more do you want?
Epikas Jones Jul 21, 2014 @ 5:03am 
Yea and he also said he dident intend for it to be "that high" , or the fact that that area was even POSSIBLE to get to in that fashion

And for the last time, there is no "mechanics" that I am MISSING or dont "know about" its simply space and shift, timed together right,(while running) and it DOES NOT go that high.

The only thing in the game that can boost you that high(if that) it is a ramp, but there is nothing of the sort in the videos I linked. he is not using any ramps. - - - -- - -----

LOL wow, that guy just outright said its AN EXPLOIT at the start of the video you linked, are you really that dumb? Thank you for proving what the guy in my videos is doing is an EXPLOIT, like I said.

I rest my case, I'm not resulting to an exploit, I'm here to prove it was not legit and I did, so thank you. I'm around rank 50 or higher in every normal leaderboard, That's good enough for me, Because I might as well be Number One since I was probably the only one within the top 50 that dident use that garbage.

And you're here calling other people BAD for not using an EXPLOIT, you make me sick.

___
Kaysick says:
"They aren't exploits, glitches, or hacks" Thought I'd quote you again for laughs, First off, its **PC**, saying there is"no hacks" for something is about the most ignorant thing you can do. Secondly, Yes every game does in fact have glitch's that can be taken advantage of.
Lastly: NO exploits you say huh? I guess hes ALSO just calling it an EXPLOIT for kicks and gigglies, Right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATaHmhtdiZI

You and Zanarias can be as naive as you want but the simple matter of the fact is that is a flatout-cold-hard-obvious-blatant-EXPLOIT.

The game was NOT intended to shoot at the ground to gain a MEGA JUMP.



Last edited by Epikas Jones; Jul 21, 2014 @ 6:08am
FlamboyantMongoose Jul 21, 2014 @ 5:12am 
Originally posted by Wobs23:
Well the issue of enemies was actually address recently with the addition of five new levels that contains absolutely no enemies. This is the path that branches straight left from the intro level.

i wish i had known this
i tried one of those levels first after the intro level and spent 7:30 wandering around and eventually finding the exit
if there had been some "flag" on that level to wait until later i probably would have had much less frustration regarding that...

Originally posted by Wobs23:
The wall running thing is slightly different. The best way to control your wall run is to control your momentum going into the run. Lateral momentum translates to a wall runwhil vertical translates to a vertical wall run (duh). The other tip I can give is to point your camera in the way you want to go, in a slight exaggerated manner. That really helped me gain control over my movement.

according to the tutorial it does not work based on momentum (i would prefer acceleration even) but rather camera
i wish it did work based on physics though
you do these kind of actions all the time in 21st century prince of persia and i have played those a good bit and never had any problems with wall running, wall jumps, chaining them, etc.
this game when i do a wall run it will randomly convert into a wall climb
also i often try to do a wall jump and end up hovering in mid-air instead of getting to the opposite wall whereupon i have to start mashing dash and jump to try to make it to the end (which works a surprising amount of the time)

Originally posted by Zanarias//:Overcast:
However, the main issue is that people seem to believe that just because the game gives you a weapon means you have to use it in every engagement, which is not the case. It's less of a combat tool and more of a path exposing tool; you use it to pick off particular enemies, so you don't even have to deal with the other 10 enemies wandering around.

this is absolutely what i want but is not true
i want to manuever around the enemies or selectively kill them in small numbers so i can maintain all the speed and rush you get from sprinting through the levels
however, when you get to those areas with 10+ enemies or a few enemies that attack you before you can see them you have to stop and start picking them off otherwise you can die in one hit due to knockback
you lose the rush
if you had a reasonable way to kill enemies while moving and not have to worry about dying because you dont know about those enemies hiding around the corner that would be fantastic
it would also be reminscient of a rail shooter which would be a huge draw for people that like good games

Originally posted by Gafgar:
And yeah, I would almost like for beginners to compare the game more with mega man than mirrors edge or something similar, that I have heard so many times.

i got the mirror's edge vibe at first but then dismissed it after playing more
one of the reviewers said it was mirro's edge+sonic+mega man which seems rather accurate



anyway: still feels like a great concept in this game and lots of potential
just need for combat to be more fluid and less jarring, and also for enemies to not be so godly and cheap
also for wall running and jumping to be more consistent in terms of mechanics

my best guess is i should wait for cloudbuilt 2
Dinosawer Jul 21, 2014 @ 6:11am 
Epikas Jones, please be nice.
There are some crazy jumps you can do without using the charge shot (I know, I only use those cause I can't pull off the charge shot yet) that you can use for shortcuts too. They're mentioned in the video, you go jump-boost-jump or jump-boost-jump-tiny pause-boost jump. They go further if you stop pressing forward as you're in the air.
Epikas Jones Jul 21, 2014 @ 6:15am 
I am "being nice" if I was to show what my true feelings are, then it would look far worse i asure you, also kind of ironic to be saying that to the person thats in the right, and being assaulted by idiots at the same time, that have no idea what an exploit is. Sure you can get Jump boosts that go pretty good distance but you will -never- get that much -vertical height-
Last edited by Epikas Jones; Jul 21, 2014 @ 6:19am
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