Chronie Aug 19, 2014 @ 11:54pm
Druids worse than the original?
The druid was one of my favorite classes to play though the original Baldur's Gate 2 with being able to summon up to 5 very long duration elementals each to help out in combat. The wiki shows a massive decrease in spells per day to that of a cleric despite the experiance table still being horrible for higher levels. Throne of Bhaal had nerfed druids effectiveness by giving clerics the ability to summon powerful elementals as well but had tried to compensate somewhat by giving druids a massive boost to spells per day.

The Half-elf cleric/ranger build while starting out with less spells per day is practically equal in casting ability of a standard druid by the end of Shadows of Amn but has better hit chance, better armor and all the divine spells. Elemental resistances and other late game bonuses are worthless if the druid cannot use some decent magic as spell levels 4 and down are almost useless. I can only find 1 redeeming factor in a druid class the bug swarm spells, the mages get better shapeshifts not to mention better summons, the clerics better or more spells and everyone else gets higher quality gear.

Druids get faster leveling to level 13 compared to a cleric and the game almost begs you to take a dual class (or muticlass) to or from fighter just to take advantage of this. The spells per day need to be improved again to compensate for single or kits otherwise there is no point in playing a plain druid as even a cleric/mage is a better option in just about every respect. Why would anyone play a druid now apart from the shapeshifter werewolf? Even those that get a werewolf want more benefits like they are supposed to have in D&D rules.
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ÄmJii Aug 20, 2014 @ 2:09am 
Single class druids have always been sucky, same goes for clerics.

If you wanna compare Cleric/Ranger to a Druid (or Fighter/Druid, which seems more accurate counterpart), keep in mind C/R and Druid has different weapon restrictions: Druids can use Scimitars, Daggers and Spears while C/R is restricted to blunt weapons and slings.

The whole "Clerics gets more spells" is rather moot point, they both end up having absurd amount of spell slots by end game (further boosted by WIS).
And far as Shapeshifters go, SS is widely considered THE worst spec in entire game due to badly implemented Werewolf bonuses. Avenger on the other hand seems quite nifty, they get good selection of Mage spells to bolster their spellcasting considerably.

"Why would anyone play druid" you ask? Why would anyone play anything else than Cleric/Ranger, Kensai/Mage, Sorcerer or other absurdly overpowered characters? Possibly because OPness ruins the fun?
Chronie Aug 20, 2014 @ 6:03am 
The avenger class is an alternative to just using summons better at low levels but the damaging power and amount of casts per day are very low. This makes them unable to dish out decent damage however the elementals can be some of the strongest summons in game and although difficult to use at times they fight on par with most monsters. Druids made up for their weaknesses by having summons tag along as expendable party members which combined with a few group buffs and bugs spells to stop instant summon kills made them quite deadly.

Example: Fire elementals +protection from evil (cleric) + haste (mage) + defensive harmony = Golems dead or carnage on most weaker groups

This example sometimes out performed my warriors even with +3 or better gear however the Throne of Bhaal expansion needs the extra casts to make up for the high mortality rate due to the high hit chance of most enermies. While you may think druids are weak the fact is they were just a lot harder to play well and can be just as good as a cleric. Mages couldn't copy them as they take 4 rounds per elemental they summon with a 15% chance that it will turn on them instead of 1 round with no failure chance. Summons make up for lower power with numbers so the amount of casts per day is very important.

Shapeshifters didn't lose much as bracers with trinkets to give an enchantment bonus were as good as almost any leather armor if not better. Comparing the druid kits for Baldur's gate 1 EE, Totemic gets better/more/earlier summons still keeping decent armor, Avenger decent shapeshifts with some better magic but poor starting armor and shapeshifter can transform at level 1 to what at that level is a overpowered form.
Chronie Aug 20, 2014 @ 6:52am 
You may also want to check the clerics spell book again as the are some very nice scaling spells and after all they do have a lot of casts per day.
kamster99 Aug 20, 2014 @ 3:09pm 
Originally posted by ÄmJii:
And far as Shapeshifters go, SS is widely considered THE worst spec in entire game due to badly implemented Werewolf bonuses.

Greater werewolf form gets -10 AC (not counting rings of protection or other ac boosting items/spells), 40% magic resistance, and 50% fire and cold resistance. All at level 13 (750,000 xp). A player character on top of that gets access to DUHM (Draw Upon Holy Might) through their innate abilities (until spellhold), and if you have a weapon in your offhand that gives you another apr (without any penalties if you are in form).

So at level 13 you are a divine caster (not a warrior) that can have 25 strength, 24 dexterity, at least -10 AC (-12 if you have 24 dexterity), 40% magic resistance, 50% cold/fire resistance, and 4 APR (without haste).

Cernd (who ends up I think contributing to this because of his stats being so poor) could have had better stats certainly, but the werewolf bonuses themselves are not badly implemented. Prior to HLA's shapeshifters are one of the better tanking classes in the game.

Originally posted by Chronie:
The Half-elf cleric/ranger build while starting out with less spells per day is practically equal in casting ability of a standard druid by the end of Shadows of Amn but has better hit chance, better armor and all the divine spells. Elemental resistances and other late game bonuses are worthless if the druid cannot use some decent magic as spell levels 4 and down are almost useless. I can only find 1 redeeming factor in a druid class the bug swarm spells, the mages get better shapeshifts not to mention better summons, the clerics better or more spells and everyone else gets higher quality gear.

Multi-class characters are basically almost always going to be better than single-class characters. There are a few exceptions to this (its worth it to take a single class mage if you want to get those level 8 and 9 spells a lot quicker) but generally this is the case.

For the record Icewind Dale has much better spells for druids for levels 1-4. If you want to play a druid with better spells for those levels look into the IWDification mod.
Last edited by kamster99; Aug 20, 2014 @ 3:41pm
Chronie Aug 20, 2014 @ 5:18pm 
Single classes had their advantages like only pure fighters could get mastery in weapons, mages got more high level spells by the end of the game (much more), clerics had some insane spell levels as did bards and only the thief class didn't seem to have much to offer from single class. The point is that druids were good for their high spell casts per day in high level spells but now there is no reason in getting them apart from a dual class at the cost of 1 level off the maximum for a fighter. The advice for the mod using the Icewind Dale spells is appreciated but still the makers should fix the druids so they maintain their 1 advantage over the cleric/ranger multiclass.
kamster99 Aug 20, 2014 @ 8:02pm 
Originally posted by Chronie:
Single classes had their advantages like only pure fighters could get mastery in weapons, mages got more high level spells by the end of the game (much more), clerics had some insane spell levels as did bards and only the thief class didn't seem to have much to offer from single class. The point is that druids were good for their high spell casts per day in high level spells but now there is no reason in getting them apart from a dual class at the cost of 1 level off the maximum for a fighter. The advice for the mod using the Icewind Dale spells is appreciated but still the makers should fix the druids so they maintain their 1 advantage over the cleric/ranger multiclass.

They have advantages over multi-classes sure but overall multi-classes tend to be better. A cleric vs a fighter/cleric, or a cleric/mage, doesn't really hold up that well (especially since cleric HLA's are pretty mediocre). Same could be said for a druid vs a cleric/ranger. That said the one casting of a level 7 spell that the druid does get at level 14 (which is 800,000xp before a cleric/ranger will get it) can be pretty handy. Nature's Beauty alone (you can cast it while invisible without losing invisibility) can be pretty handy at defeating Beholders for instance (if you are invisible they basically can't do anything to stop you). A single casting of Fire Storm will take off about 60% of the health of Thaxll'ssillyia (the dragon in the shadow lord quest) over its duration (it ignores magic resistance). Earthquake can be useful in taking enemies down because it has a very difficult save (you can even protect your parties warriors from its knock out effect by casting Chaotic Commands on them beforehand).

There are later benefits to taking a druid over a cleric/ranger of course. For instance the ability to cast Greater Elemental Summoning is extremely useful. They dispel on hit, are immune to +2 and lower weapons, and have various other immunities and effects. Unlike Deva's you can also have one of them and a Planatar active at the same time.

Druids at level 15 also get 6 castings of level 7 spells, compared to a cleric/rangers (a multiclass anyways) having 1 at that point.

Overall though your options between levels 14 and 15 end up being pretty limited. Cleric/rangers definetly are the safer and easier pick of the two.
Last edited by kamster99; Aug 20, 2014 @ 8:14pm
Chronie Aug 21, 2014 @ 12:00am 


Originally posted by kamster99:

Druids at level 15 also get 6 castings of level 7 spells, compared to a cleric/rangers (a multiclass anyways) having 1 at that point.
*sigh* it seems that some people just don't read the point was the druids have LOST that bonus and therefore are weak. The EE version I have played did not give that bonus but has standard cleric levels spell progression and the wiki for the game also states this is the case. If you want to make a point at least do some research to support it. The topic name cleary states druids are worse than the original not are completely useless apart from a few unique spells.
kamster99 Aug 21, 2014 @ 6:30am 
They didn't lose that bonus they still get it. Maybe you were playing using the BG2 tweak pack, which has a component that adjusts the druid tables (both the experience and the spell tables) to be like a clerics. But how druids are treated spell wise hasn't changed.

As for the wiki its wrong. If you don't believe me use Near Infinity and check out MXSPLDRU.2da, the game file druids use to handle spell progression. Playithardcore is a better place to check out those sorts of tables.
Last edited by kamster99; Aug 21, 2014 @ 6:51am
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Date Posted: Aug 19, 2014 @ 11:54pm
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