NEED ADVICE FROM FELLOW GAMERS- When to buy and what to buy - HTC Vive vs Oculus RIft

[jrocs]

Hello all! I know most of this is opinion based and subjective, but I need help deciding on which system to get between the HTC and the Vive as a am I torn and only want to invest in one system. Hoping to have existing users chime in and walk me through their thoughts. I have summarized the systems below to the best of my knowledge. In short, they all have their pros and cons. I am willing to spend the money if the investment is sound or as best as it can be right now. However, I am concerned with the lack of content, exclusives and more so the possibility that my investment today may be outdated before I have a chance to break it in. As far as the technology is concerned as a whole, I feel a purchase now may be premature based on everything going on in the industry. Although, I want one now! Please see the below and let me know your thoughts. Thanks all!

Currently, I am a PS4 user but have little interest in their VR as I see it as a lesser technology spec wise and not happy to see the new PS4 pro come out which is rated better for VR. Plus, I don’t want to be tied to a console that is literally already outdated with the release of the Pro. I would rather spend the extra money and get a gaming PC and go with the Rift or Vive. I have a 7ftx6ft max play space available and looking to get the below PC once it goes on sale or a can’t wait any longer (whichever comes first). Reason for this PC purchase, I have a ton of Best buys cards through a contest at work and they will cover cost of unit. Although, I see the one on Alienware’s web site comes with liquid cooling vs this one which is air. I like the thought of the Geforce 1080 card for 4k as I will hook it up to a 4k TV and hear mix reviews about the 1070 card. Any thoughts of the computer end would be appreciated as I am new to CPU gaming.


http://www.bestbuy.com/site/alienware-aurora-r5-desktop-intel-core-i7-16gb-memory-nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-256gb-solid-state-drive-2tb-hard-drive-silver/5648000.p?skuId=5648000&productCategoryId=pcmcat748301724422


Rift –

Pros –

Controllers - touch controllers seem very impressive. I have had a chance to use them and was blown away. I have not used the HTC controllers yet. Although, I am not sure how they can be as comfortable as the Rifts on design alone but that is just my observation/opinion. Plus, it is annoying that you have to buy them separately which pretty much puts the cost point of the Rift right in line with the Vive at around $800. However, I see something is already in development for new controllers from Vive to combat the Rift. Rift wins here except for the fact that the Vive is working on something that could be comparable.

Head set – lite and breathable. Easy to put on. Not as many wires as the Vive. Build in speakers are a nice touch. Not necessarily as glass friendly as the Vive but not an issue for me.
Rift wins here for me again except Vive has already come out with a new head set and a battery pack for wireless play available in the near future. I also hear Rift is working on a wireless headset as well now.

Steam VR – I understand you can use Steam games in with the Rift. This is great but I don’t know how it makes sense for Rift to support long term and it is taking money away from their store front. This would be a big consideration for me as then I have the best of both vs the HTC just working in steam. Is this correct? Can you use Oculus games on the Vive? Thought I saw that they were stopping that but not sure.

Cons –

Sensors - Feel like sensors are subpar to HTC lighthouses. Don’t like the fact that they are USB based and room scale is still experimental.

Support – No one to call, just an email. How has this worked out for existing users? Is it any different with the Vive?

Oculus store - don’t like that there are no refunds and no way to read reviews, at least that I saw. Steam seems very user friendly, but again if I can use steam with Rift then it is a moot point I guess.

Vive – I have little feedback on this as have not tried it yet. Any feedback is welcome.

Pros –

Sensors - Light houses seem to be the better of the technology. I love the idea of room scale although with a 7ftx6ft space to work with, does it really matter? Even with the 3rd sensor option on the Rift, the light houses still seem better technology.

Cons –

Controllers – Rift seems to have a more ergonomic solution. But stuff is in development I guess on Vive’s end.


Now vs the future - Biggest draw back with the Vive for me is that they are making so many changes that I feel like I would be buying an outdated product with the new headset/wireless/new controllers coming out.


My concerns are the following. I am worried that based on all the news of new development between wireless headsets, new controllers etc. that I will make a purchase now and almost immediately need or want to upgrade to a new device/accessory. For example, Vive’s new headset is an upgrade. I hear it is much more comfortable so I will probably want it. So, I buy the whole unit as is and they purchase a new headset that should probably just be included to throw away the one it was packaged with? Same with the controllers. By the Vive, get the existing controllers, and then have to purchase the new ones if/when they come out? But I guess it’s the same with the Rift. You have to buy their new controllers if you want that experience. Would I be better off just waiting to see which each system comes out with and repackages their system with or am I looking into it too deep? Also, I don't see a ton of content for either that is not a short game or demo experience. Any feedback would be appreciated.

[¤☣wing☢zeяo☣¤™]

I think you need to ask your self do i want VR now really, this is the early adopter stage where standards are not in place and things are changing all the time, your not going to see AAA games for a couple of years dedicated to just VR, there will be a second wave of HMD's before that happens, you will need to upgrade and get new extras to keep up, that's why you see some upset people who just didn't reseach what they were getting into expecting blockbuster titles and perfect visualls and might need extras for some things.

Iv'e bought mine fully understanding the cost and what is on offer, and fully understand I'll need gen2 for the things coming, it's a exspensive stage not for the faint of heart.

[jrocs]

Originally posted by Sr. Itakis:

No vive 2.0 is expected until 2018, and to have a good improvement it is necessary to improve the pixel density in the glasses, the capacity of GPUs to have 4k per eye, maybe an all new in-out tracking system, and software. The 90 min wireless is not enought. And games. One major step will be a MMO game (cross fingers in this year). Ask yourself is you want to be in this madness or you need a perfect final solution. I'm 51 and I lost the last oportunity to see VR in 90's when it was called virtuality and I don't want to miss it again this time, so I got my vive's on June. And happy with it since the first day. (ask yourself if you are an astronaut or a turist XDD)
I have an i7 4.0ghz 16gb gtx1070 win10, and it's fine. I've used an i5 3.4 gtx1060 3g, and it's not so fine, but it does the job.
P.S. I ended up paying my home last year so this was the gift I made myself :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well put Sr. Itakis. Thank you both for your replies. I certainly follow your logic about enjoying what something is now vs not experiencing at all while waiting for perfection. Also, I enjoyed the astronaut vs tourist comment. I guess it seems to be moving so much faster than what I thought in such a short time. It's not like I am waiting for a flying car because I know it can be done one day and therefore refuse to by a regular car. I just feel in a year, or less, the entire offering could be different. Or maybe never takes off the way we thought which would suck considering the entire investment. In any case, point taken.


So, let’s say I stop trying to create the crystal ball and see what the future holds. Let’s talk current released hardware/advertised advancements to be sold soon etc. Without focusing on if I should wait or not, what made you guys/gals pick the systems you did? Why not the competing systems? Would love to hear what got you to the system you have and what you do/don’t like or had problems with for my education.

I hear Oculus may be closing support for Steam games. Any truth to that? The Rift was catching my attention as I could have access to both their store front as well as Steam’s. Can you currently play Oculus games with the Vive?

Thanks!

[Wasted Potential]

My 2 cents:
First, I recommend if your going to strap something to your face, get Virtual Reality not just VR. Virtual Reality means, walking, turning, etc.. in VR. Only the Vive can do that reliably. Sure some people say the Rift can do room scale, but the majority of Rift owners seem to be having major issues. Do some research.. then do not get the Rift, mobile Vr, etc.. and just get the Vive.

So then to your second question. Now or later. While their does seem to be some improved lighthouses, headband, wireless, etc.. on the horizon. I don't think it's that big of a deal as you think. 1st, the controllers. You will want the wands plus any upcoming knuckle controller. Why? The #1 gripe of Rift's touch controllers is that while they feel great for hand motions.. they suck for shooting, sword fighting, etc.. ya know.. the things gamers tend to want to do. Also with so many programs already setup for the wands.. it will take awhile for a new controller to get any kind of support. It might work by button mapping.. but I am sure that will be confusing in many cases. 2nd, wireless. This won't be a free add-on to the current Vive. I am sure they will offer a wired and more expensive wireless version.. so you won't really be saving much if anything. Same goes for the headband, etc..

But at the end of the day, it comes down to can you wait or do you want to do VR now? I figure anything coming out for Steam VR in the next year or so should run great on the Vive as it was programmed targeting it. So it isn't like a new VR headset is just going to appear and the Vive is going to disappear. But a newer, lighter, more stylized version of a SteamVR headset is bound to appear from another manufacturer soon, and more Vive purchase options too. Personally, I'd probably go with the Vive, since it has the larger install base, proven track record, etc.. but I would wait a few months at this point to see what wireless option is best and what these new lighthouses are like. Then buy and enjoy.

P.s. An AMA with Valve today confirmed new lighthouses soon, controller later, and more Valve Vr games.

P.s.s. HTC has the TPCAST wireless working well from early reviews, but HTC have stated publicly they are also currently working with INTEL on another wireless option. HTC also has that puck coming out that should generate many cheap add-on controller options (think guns, pinball controls, arcade controls, bats, etc)

P.s.s.s. Do not get the Rift.. you will probably regret it.

[RED-FROG]

If you want the best, I don't see any reason going for the Rift.
VR should be roomscale. That changes everything.
The rift has been beaten at the moment the vive has been officially announced. Touch doesnt really change that.

The new Vive controllers should be further away than we think. And the deluxe audio strap is gonna be a nice to have but not a must have.
A must have would rather be a 20$ VR Cover.
TPCast also wont be a must have. The batteries will always be empty and you'd have at least 2 of them. TPCast really only is early adopting to wireless VR. Very expensive and early. Room for improvements.

The normal Vive package has it all.

[¤☣wing☢zeяo☣¤™]

Originally posted by jroc2680:

Without focusing on if I should wait or not, what made you guys/gals pick the systems you did?!

I've used the Steam platform from Beta was a factor I guess, but mainly at launch it was because they had the full package with tracking and room scale, also I think over time Steam will have a better and more selection of games.

Even if a better HMD comes out the Vive will still work, the only new tech you might miss out on is eye tracking, maybe a mod will come out for Vive though.

Originally posted by Sr. Itakis:

No vive 2.0 is expected until 2018,

True but what if the next gen Steam VR HMD comes from somewhere else? Vive isn't Valve and Valve want everyone to make HMDs for their platform, it only take one of the big guns like LG or Samsung to release a compatible HMD, they could make one cheaper and better as they own the screen making faculties and are bigger companies in general.

[jrocs]

"VR should be roomscale. That changes everything."

I agreee 100% with that in theory, Two things. 1. I only have a 7x6 space at max (as in walls and furniture that can't be moved run along that line). Is that enough to appreciate full room scale? 2. I hear that games are going to be more geared towards teleporting because either people dont' have the room (smaller market) or get motion sickness from "walking" in VR. Any thoughts on that? If that were the case, some could say that room scale is not as important if you navigated the same way on either system by teleporting. By roomscale, I think you mean being able to walk around in VR within your physical space. Please correct me if I am wrong.


"The new Vive controllers should be further away than we think. And the deluxe audio strap is gonna be a nice to have but not a must have.
A must have would rather be a 20$ VR Cover.
TPCast also wont be a must have. The batteries will always be empty and you'd have at least 2 of them. TPCast really only is early adopting to wireless VR. Very expensive and early. Room for improvements."

You are right. None of them are necessary. Waiting for them might not make sense either. I certainly don't know for sure but I would image they will milk these as accessories and not include it in the purchase of the entire unit for some time. Even if they did, it would probably jack up the price to equal buying them separate. At least as separate, you have the option to invest or not to.

I guess I am more concerned with the idea of new lighthouses. I don't know how you would use the old ones when the new ones come out and I read that they will be much more efficient and easier to setup.

Thanks for the input.

[Wasted Potential]

FACT: In VR you'll never have enough space.

But even with teleportation, room scale is required. Why? Take a game like Smashbox Arena. You teleport from place to place. But it is still 100% better after teleporting to be able to move 2 ft. to the left or right then be a sitting target. Imagine dodge ball.. but your stuck in place.. not fun. And well designed games, have you recenter yourself often.. thus even 3ft can be enough for roomscale.

This same game mechanic is found almost in every VR game. You teleport large distances.. but walk short distances. It does work and you get the hang of it quickly.

Not having a lot of room is a bummer though. I have twice that and it sucks to play really physical games. I tend to avoid the tennis type games (that make you want to jump for a ball) and concentrate on those like Smashbox Arena, etc.. that can be played in a few feet. Luckily, many if not most games are of the few feet kind.

[jrocs]

Originally posted by Wasted Potential:

FACT: In VR you'll never have enough space.

But even with teleportation, room scale is required. Why? Take a game like Smashbox Arena. You teleport from place to place. But it is still 100% better after teleporting to be able to move 2 ft. to the left or right then be a sitting target. Imagine dodge ball.. but your stuck in place.. not fun. And well designed games, have you recenter yourself often.. thus even 3ft can be enough for roomscale.

This same game mechanic is found almost in every VR game. You teleport large distances.. but walk short distances. It does work and you get the hang of it quickly.

Not having a lot of room is a bummer though. I have twice that and it sucks to play really physical games. I tend to avoid the tennis type games (that make you want to jump for a ball) and concentrate on those like Smashbox Arena, etc.. that can be played in a few feet. Luckily, many if not most games are of the few feet kind.

Thanks for the feedback Wasted Potential. Good points. Yea the space I have ins't ideal which is why I was considering the rift. It sounds like the space I have will be good enough to manage most games and I would image games developed for the Vive would take that into consideration. I would imagine the space you could have with the vive (16x16) would not be available to most consumers and therefore not of much appeal to developers to create a game that would require you to be able to move in that space. Even being able to "walk" with a push of a button on a controller vs teleporting should be an option in all games as it seems to be for Serious Sam. The teleporting thing is a nice touch to save time but kinda feels like it would pull you out of the immersion factor.

[Sticky Honeybuns]

If you followed CES this year you would have seen that Valve was the only one there with new and innovative technology. Everything that Oculus has released to date has been subpar compared to the Vive, even their controllers. Sure the touch controllers can sense your finger movements but as it turns out, most games at this stage require you to hold something that mimicked the Vive controllers better. This could change in the future.

Valve demonstrated their tracking puck that can turn any real world object into a trackable VR object. This tech will be a major player in VR.

Valve also demonstrated that they have no intentions of making their HMD obsolete by showing how their accessories can be retro fitted regardless of the next generation 1.1 and so fourth.

Valve also confirmed they are working on their own VR games during the recent reddit AMA with Gabe Newell. You don't want to miss out on probably the best VR games ever released because you bought a rift, etc.

Valve is also giving away their tech and hosting training sessions to show developers how to implement it into their games. This means a large number of devs will have the ability to develop for the platform with the same tools that Valve currently has.

The Vive will also work with any developer that chooses to support it whereas the rift won't.

Rift tracking is a dead end also and they will be forced to change eventually.

Buy the Vive and come join the rest of us in the best gaming experience you can imagine.

You won't regret it.

Happy gaming!

[jrocs]

Originally posted by Wasted Potential:

My 2 cents:
First, I recommend if your going to strap something to your face, get Virtual Reality not just VR. Virtual Reality means, walking, turning, etc.. in VR. Only the Vive can do that reliably. Sure some people say the Rift can do room scale, but the majority of Rift owners seem to be having major issues. Do some research.. then do not get the Rift, mobile Vr, etc.. and just get the Vive.

So then to your second question. Now or later. While their does seem to be some improved lighthouses, headband, wireless, etc.. on the horizon. I don't think it's that big of a deal as you think. 1st, the controllers. You will want the wands plus any upcoming knuckle controller. Why? The #1 gripe of Rift's touch controllers is that while they feel great for hand motions.. they suck for shooting, sword fighting, etc.. ya know.. the things gamers tend to want to do. Also with so many programs already setup for the wands.. it will take awhile for a new controller to get any kind of support. It might work by button mapping.. but I am sure that will be confusing in many cases. 2nd, wireless. This won't be a free add-on to the current Vive. I am sure they will offer a wired and more expensive wireless version.. so you won't really be saving much if anything. Same goes for the headband, etc..

But at the end of the day, it comes down to can you wait or do you want to do VR now? I figure anything coming out for Steam VR in the next year or so should run great on the Vive as it was programmed targeting it. So it isn't like a new VR headset is just going to appear and the Vive is going to disappear. But a newer, lighter, more stylized version of a SteamVR headset is bound to appear from another manufacturer soon, and more Vive purchase options too. Personally, I'd probably go with the Vive, since it has the larger install base, proven track record, etc.. but I would wait a few months at this point to see what wireless option is best and what these new lighthouses are like. Then buy and enjoy.

P.s. An AMA with Valve today confirmed new lighthouses soon, controller later, and more Valve Vr games.

P.s.s. HTC has the TPCAST wireless working well from early reviews, but HTC have stated publicly they are also currently working with INTEL on another wireless option. HTC also has that puck coming out that should generate many cheap add-on controller options (think guns, pinball controls, arcade controls, bats, etc)

P.s.s.s. Do not get the Rift.. you will probably regret it.

Never thought about the Rift controller ruining or changing the experience in shooter/sword fighting etc. It would be nice to have a controller do it all and be as nice feeling as the Rift's. However, you have given me a reason to look forward to a new controller down the road from Vive that could be interchanged with different games for different experiences vs feeling like they are an existing technology that you will pay for now and have to be replaced and garbage later.

Thanks for the education on the new stuff and your thoughts. The new light houses seem great and would be a bummer to have to replace as I don't know how or why you would old ones assuming this was ever an issue for you to begin with. So a new question, how are the current lighthouses? Any issues with tracking and/or technical issues worth avoiding until something new comes out?

Interesting with the pucks. I guess I don't understand how screwing a device to a bat or gun would enhance the experience in the game as I picture one sensor just syncing a device. For example, if I could just tie a controller to a toy gun, how would I use that gun to shoot/reload/scope etc? I guess time will tell and obviously they have something in mind to develop and sell. Seems like more of a developers toy right now other than a consumers unless they are hoping everyone becomes a "developer" in their own way to add to the database of ways to use for the community.

The wireless not such as big of an appeal to be as before. Yes it would be nice if not restricted by battery power which I guess is kinda hard to avoid. With my space restrictions, not sure if wireless would do a whole lot for me or certainly not worth waiting for the technology before purchasing.

[jrocs]

Thanks for the input everyone. I am analytical by nature and this is a technology that excites me but I need to do the homework before diving in. The more I know, the more comfortable I am pulling the trigger and it concerned me seeing the existing technology as a starting point for the manufacturers/developers vs a finished product that I could invest in without any buyers remorse when it is changing so quick. I am leaning towards the Vive but please keep the comments/opinions/answers coming as it will only help me and hopefully provide insight to someone else. I don't know anyone with either system right now so this is very helpful!

Any reviews/opinions of the technology(s) and products are very helpful. Also, any regrets, issues that you experienced or continue to experience I would love to hear about.

Also, the gaming platform still concerns me to a slight degree. For example, with the Rift, you have both the Oculus store and steam. With Vive, it looks like you only have one which is bit of a bummer. With the lack on content right now, having two stores is nice and I like the Rifts polished store front. Although, no real feedback on games like steam and no return policy sucks. I think I saw something where you could play Oculus games through steam or something like that but it something was "striped" so you couldn't. Also, the vortex thing seems like a neat idea but curious on the feedback from those that have used. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Support - how does that work with the Vive. I read some disappointing things about the rift and their long delays waiting for email responses. No contact # to call. Is the Vive any different? Experiences with support?

Thanks again!

[Underworld]

Holy crap, just read on the oculus forums about their controller issues, I wouldnt touch a oculus with a ten foot pull. Not to mention, all the new cool after market products coming out on the Vive this year.. Vive is simply a better product all around. And I totally disagree with your opinion on the controllers, the Vive has just the PERFECT angle to be used as a gun or a torch, and of course the Vive controls are rechargeable, you dont need AA batteries.

Also, you dont need extra USB slots for additional sensors, this is huge!

If you have the room, for TRUE roomscale, I advise you to try a Vive to make the right choice, its not even close :)

[Sticky Honeybuns]

To be clear, the new lighthouses are only to make the overall system cheaper. They do not add any better tracking.

Tech101, if you are waiting for something better you will always be waiting.

[jrocs]

Originally posted by Sticky Honeybuns:

To be clear, the new lighthouses are only to make the overall system cheaper. They do not add any better tracking.

Tech101, if you are waiting for something better you will always be waiting.

lol. You are correct there. However, it's not entirely about waiting. It's feeling that my purchase today will literally be different in many aspects a year from now or sooner. It's not like a cell phone where I have been conditioned to accept a replacement and the cost every few years. I saw the Rift in a best buy and fell in love ready to buy and then poked around just enough to realize I was standing at the beginning, not somewhere in the middle with new things being announced that were for sale or in development.

I am also new to the technology. Seeing the rift was my first experience and the investment + options + developments in the making now + the industry (Facebook buying rift etc) made me want to learn as much as I could. It's not about waiting for a final product that is completely polished as I understand that will never happen which is good for everyone as things always get better. It's about making as much of an educated decision as I can in the buying stage vs after the purchase when I learn what I did not take the time to understand prior.

Thanks for the heads up on the light houses. I read this that indicates that they might help in functionality. If you are correct, then one more thing off the list to think about (:

“The TS3633 excels on several technical characteristics such as detected pulse width versus distance, more sensitivity for longer range detection, better off angle detection, improved optical sync detection, improved start of sync detection, and improved centroid location,” he said. “All of these technical improvements equate to a more robust SteamVR Tracking experience with observably improved user experience.”

http://www.roadtovr.com/lighthouse-chip-triad-ts3633-steamvr-htc-vive-2-cost-reduction-improved-vr-tracking/

[RED-FROG]

Originally posted by Sr. Itakis:

On vive you'll get one to one scale, a floor to be stand on, controllers to manipulated and hold virtual things, 360x360 virtual world, mic to talk and room scale, all in a box. And you can play with the lights off if you want to. :-)

And you get the camera to look outside the HMD. Absolutely useful for roomscale. I honestly have no idea how I would manage to walk around in my living room with the Rift on my head, getting in place, reaching for something (non tracked xbox controller for example, or something to drink. Even the smartphone). I can always look outside by a double-press.. makes vr life better.


I have never had problems with the lighthouse or sensors(*1).
Overall I never had issues with the whole Vive setup at all(*2). But that is usually the case with my PC stuff.
You just have to be careful with every VR headset.

(*1) I once had random tracking issues. Difficult to replicate. Turned out, it was the inside of the controller had some liquid entered (perhaps from a birthday party) and must have blinded the little windows for the sensors or sensors themselves. Cleaned the plastic shell from inside and thr sensors and the controller was great again.

(*2) I once made the mistake and sat my little butt on one Vive controller. I instantly jumped up again. (While using xbox controller on the sofa, I forgot about it...always put the vive controllers away.....)
The big thumb pad didn't like it and the clicking feedback was gone for one side. Opened the controller, added some layers of "Tesa film" on the button and its clicking again.

So yeah.... its reliable and works. Some people on youtube constantly bringing new videos using the Vive and it works flawless.

Better lighthouse and smaller, cheaper sensors with less power draw are going to be a very nice to have however. But nobody knows when this is gonna happen.

I can understand your position. The Vive and Rift arent new anymore and the computer market is constantly changing/improving. But the oncoming improvements are no huge selling reasons IMO.

I will be getting all the new stuff however. But thats just me and not everybody will want it at any price.

Also, not everybody having VR right now is fully statisfied with it. It really depends on your gaming preferences. If you want a WOW, CSGO, LoL endless game... bad luck

Yesterday ive checked out 4 new Destinations and played some I Hate Santa and I was good with it. Fun time.
People that are often looking for new games and quickly become bored with the recent 2D games should be perfect for VR