Underrail > General Discussions > Topic Details
Izorion Jan 19 @ 5:22am
Oddity versus Classic xp
As a huge fan of old-school RPGs, I'm accustomed to gaining xp for killing mobs and completing quests. I'm not familiar with the 'oddity' system where finding random items is the only way to gain xp. I was even more surprised to see the description saying 'this was the way the game was meant to be played'. I thought I would give it a shot, but after about an hour of gameplay I've only managed to find one scrap of paper worth 1xp. Is anyone playing in oddity xp mode and actually enjoying it?
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Caesar Jan 19 @ 6:59am 
only because I had already run through the game 10+ times. I didnt mind at as bad as or changes like to the weight limit and what merchants are willing to buy. (even though it is more realistic it is such a drag now)
Lucifer Jan 19 @ 8:35am 
Originally posted by Caesar:
only because I had already run through the game 10+ times. I didnt mind at as bad as or changes like to the weight limit and what merchants are willing to buy. (even though it is more realistic it is such a drag now)

i agree, the new weight system (though badly need an indicater) and merchant system is more realistic and thus a good addition to the game. However, the oddity system, though unique and interesting, is not a good way to solely handle XP gain. It would work well as an additional form of gaining XP, but to replace a system that rewards you with XP for using your skills is not a good idea.

Practice makes perfect. picking locks again and again would mean you would get better at it. Killing or dealing with a creature would make you understand it better and teach you what to do and not do. thus the more you do, the better you get at it. This is REAL. The oddity system is an interesting idea, but would do the game better if it was an additional boon or something... say finding 3 of the oddity items of the same creature would gain you +X amount of damage, or +X amount to your initiative rolls, or better your crit chance or something. almost as if youve done an autopsy on the creature, found out what made it tick.
St.Izan Jan 19 @ 9:04am 
+1
Caesar Jan 19 @ 9:29am 
Originally posted by Lucifer:
The oddity system is an interesting idea, but would do the game better if it was an additional boon or something... say finding 3 of the oddity items of the same creature would gain you +X amount of damage, or +X amount to your initiative rolls, or better your crit chance or something. almost as if youve done an autopsy on the creature, found out what made it tick.

100% agree with that and think it is that would be the perfect way to use this oddity system. That would be a so cool to get say +X damage because you found 5 of some rare oddity. I think most of them should just give you xp but it would be a cool easter egg to have a few of them buff your damage, psi or luck(crits) even.
netdark3000 Jan 19 @ 3:58pm 
With the same level in both.
To me it does not matter.
silverthorn3 Jan 19 @ 7:19pm 
Like i have written in the forum. The start in oddity is very slow until like hopper quest. But leveling picks up really fast around GMS compound where you get those oddity items a lot.
Lucifer Jan 19 @ 10:07pm 
To be honest, the only time traditional XP gain has been a little out of place is in the completion of quests. In games like Fallout 1&2 and Arcanum, solving or completing quests almost always resulted in a level up. This i think is wrong. This should be rewarded with material things, as the XP you earnt was done so by doing the quest, not telling the quest giver you have finished it. i believe that XP for quests should only be greater than what youve earnt over the process of doing that quest if the player decides the "no reward is nessary" option. you character will be worse off from not having the extra items and/or wealth, but be stronger in abilities. other than this, not gaining XP from 'honing' you skills is a tad unrealistic. you learn from everything you do. once bitten twice shy, what doesnt kill you makes you stronger and all that.

If you're reading this Styg, we love you, your game and your ideas. But give this some thought too if you please
netdark3000 Jan 20 @ 3:34am 
For me XP is like a reward.
It would be very frustrating you finish an important mission and not level up, or not approaching the next level.
Voidhawk Jan 22 @ 6:01pm 
Lucifer;

+1 ; XP from quests should come from completing the action, not talking to random schmo. Experience is from the doing, so unless there is an option to refuse the material reward in exchange for 'training'/'tips n tricks', the journey is where the experience is made, not the destination.
Lucifer Jan 23 @ 2:26am 
netdark, your right, XP comes across as being a reward, though (aside from the quest completion rewards) i've never seen it as being a reward. XP should ALWAYS be awarded to a player for surviving combat situations and successfully using their skills. Going back to the guy that gave you the quest, to go into a dark cave and get some lost item (that just happens to always be in the very last room or lowest level guarded by the biggest of the baddies), and say to him "Yeah, i did it" usually results in a far greater XP reward than anything that you will have accumulated over the course of that quest. This i feel is wrong. Every RPG has and does do it. You say it would be frustrating to finish an important mission and not level up, in my mind, if the mission was of great importance then the XP gained and leveling of skills would be (or should be) more than rewarding enough for DOing the quest, not handing it in.

Two of my favourite RPGs, Fallout and Arcanum, have some interesting XP moddifiers that i feel Underrail could mix in. Fallout had XP gain bonuses depending on your combat performance, as in the old "for defeating your opponents without taking a scratch you get 100XP". and Arcanum you gained XP for simply successfully HITTING an opponent rather than killing them, thus allowing you to take a complete non-leathal approach to the game. but both games suffered from the quest XP reward.
Styg  [developer] Jan 23 @ 2:41am 
IMO, the level based progression is just not well suited for handling experience gains through skill usage.

Separate skilled progression lends much better to that if you manage to create a system which is not easily exploitable or counter intuitive like they tend to be.
gjx469 Jan 23 @ 3:43am 
From what I can see Styg, you've incorporated some xp for killing mobs already, via trophies that they drop when you kill them. To be honest, if we're talking realism, then there is a decent argument that you learn a lot from killing the first few rathounds (say) but as you kill more and more of them, you stop learning anything new as you already know the range of their behaviour. This is simulated in the classic xp system by diminishing returns on killing mobs, and under the oddity system by only first x trophies giving you xp. As such, whilst you may want to tweak how many trophies can be received from individual mob types, the argument that you're not rewarding kills under oddity xp is demonstrably wrong.

One suggestion would be that you could extend this to lockpicking, hacking, and pickpocketing skills, by including trophies in the opened container - although this would need to be balanced against not having access to those trophies if you don't have the skill.

Potentially this could even be extended to crafting, with a small chance to create an xp trophy when you craft an item.

Having tried both the classic and the oddity systems for the early game, I would say that the oddity system is mechanically better as it doesn't force you into gaming the system by e.g. killing everything you see, deliberately spotting all trapdoors before using them, picking all locks for the sake of it even if you don't have to etc. The only reservation I have is that for the early game (i.e. pre GMS) the oddity system gives much slower levelling than the classic system. I'd suggest that 3-4 tokens be put into the starting areas in the base to fix this; under the classic system, you're pretty much at level 2 as soon as you leave the base by the lower exit, whereas under the oddity system you generally won't have even a single one at this stage.
Styg  [developer] Jan 23 @ 4:04am 
I'm NOT talking realism. That was not the motivation for the oddity system.

There are no diminishing returns for repeated kills in classic XP system, only XP reduction for the level difference - not the same thing. I never argued that I don't want to award XP for killing, just that I don't want it to be the major and/or inexhaustible source of XP as that forces certain playstyle.

I purposefully didn't award oddities for skill usage because I want the system to award achieving goals, rather than how you get there.

Increasing player overall level based on specific skill usage is just messy once you get to implementing it in detail, as opposed to having a specific skill that can be increased separately and directly correlates to the triggering action.

If I do end up adding different ways to obtain oddities (not just finding them on corpses and containers), it will have to be in a way that would allow characters with all skill sets to reach it, rather than adding all the different ones for different skill sets and then trying to balance them out.

Btw, I agree that there are not enough oddities in the very early game and I intend to fix that.
Lucifer Jan 23 @ 7:35am 
It certainly adds a fresh new take on something thats been around since ever and has always been done a certain way because 'thats how its done'. And it being something that rewards the explorer for searching and mapping every area with care is great, because we all know it can be easy to get turned around down there. when you first mentioned the oddity system for the creatures it you made it sound like youd be rewarded for killing a wide variety of creatures rather than farming the same ones. this sounds good, but ive noticed that the first part of the game is pretty much all rat hounds, then mind zappy bugs, then mutants, then burrowers. as you go along the different areas all host creatures of a different sort. i must admit the latest new areas have a far wider range of creatures in them.

This is your game, Styg, and i've loved every moment of it (save for the initial mutant encounters in which they seemed almost impossible) i'm all for where ever you take this baby!
she-ra Jan 26 @ 9:11pm 
Originally posted by Styg:
I purposefully didn't award oddities for skill usage because I want the system to award achieving goals, rather than how you get there.

Btw, I agree that there are not enough oddities in the very early game and I intend to fix that.
By that do you mean all oddities are obtainable without relying on certain skills? Because if so I have found a handful of oddities that required hack or lockpick (they were in lockers/ containers). Even though lockpick/hack may seem like viable skills that everyone will benefit from, so long as you have an omni tool for getting into vents you could get through the dungeons without either of those skills (as far as I could tell anyways, I will try a 0 hack/lockpick character next playthrough).

I can only remember exactly one of these locations and that is the building beneathe the one that contains the wormhole. I killed the thugs around the fire for fun then went inside (can't remember if I needed to lockpick the door) and there is a locker that required picking that contained an oddity. Oh, there is also the gate in rail crossing that you can hack the lock to discover a pile of 'old money' which you can study one for 3 points. Unless there are alternate non skill based ways to obtain these I felt I should point it out as both these appeared to require either lockpick or hack.
Also in regard to finding oddities on corpses: that would require a combat based character in order to obtain these, so a non combat character will be missing out.

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, but what you said sounds like you don't want oddities to require a certain skill to obtain (which in most cases is the case, I find most in containers/lockers/shelves that don't require specific skills to open or to get there).

Also I felt that there was an acceptable amount of oddities in the early game, I personally feel if there was any more then leveling up in oddity mode will become easier/quicker in the early game than in classic XP mode.
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