Door Kickers > General Discussions > Topic Details
solarphoenix7 Sep 3, 2013 @ 4:26pm
Aren't SWAT teams supposed to be non-lethal?
Granted, the scope of my knowledge on SWAT team tactics comes from Spoony's let's plays of SWAT 4, but I'm seeing a lot of dead perps in these videos.
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Nick Vascuas Sep 3, 2013 @ 4:29pm 
Depends on the situation. Im sure the swat teams being sent into a school shooting would be kill on sight. (as an extreme example)
Vulpe Nebuna  [developer] Sep 3, 2013 @ 4:35pm 
Originally posted by solarphoenix7:
Granted, the scope of my knowledge on SWAT team tactics comes from Spoony's let's plays of SWAT 4, but I'm seeing a lot of dead perps in these videos.

We plan to add some less-than-lethal methods further in development.
Tripas Sep 3, 2013 @ 4:35pm 
YOU FOOOOOOL!

Sorry, I do that whenever someone metions Spoony and SWAT 4 in the same sentence :p.

But yeah, I'm guessing that the game wouldn't look as exciting if you'd were just trying to arrest people, trying to get them to drop their weapons, using pepper spray to subdue them, etc. I suppose we should be thinking of this as "Counter-Strike as an RTS" and kick some notions of realism in the head along the way.
Last edited by Tripas; Sep 3, 2013 @ 4:35pm
Gundato Sep 3, 2013 @ 5:24pm 
SWAT (at least, in the sense of "highly trained police officers who are sent in to handle high risk situations where the probability of gun violence is high), doesn't change their rules of engagement based upon a situation. It always boils down to the following:
Only use lethal force if there is a clear and present danger being posed.

To put this in video game terms (specifically the ones used in SWAT 3 and SWAT 4), SWAT is allowed to open fire if the suspect is raising their gun to point at someone. If they just have it down at their hands, things get murky and it is really a judgement call (that will then be analyzed VERY heavily, potentially by the news media).

I never watched the Spoony videos, but I suspect he did what most SWAT 4 players did which was just to roll with the beanbag shotty or pepperspray paint balls as it makes the game a LOT easier as you can shoot on sight (what games have trained us to do) rather than assess the situation before engaging (which is why SWAT 3 has screwed me over in games like CoD and CS :p).
Thjudge Sep 3, 2013 @ 5:26pm 
Sit Wait And Talk would not be a fun game to play... and ya contrary to popular belief SWAT always tries to end things without shooting people... less paperwork.
[Obs] LuuQ ☠ Sep 3, 2013 @ 5:42pm 
Lets go!
Vin Sep 3, 2013 @ 5:58pm 
Originally posted by Tripas:
YOU FOOOOOOL! :prisoner:

Sorry, I do that whenever someone metions Spoony and SWAT 4 in the same sentence :p.

But yeah, I'm guessing that the game wouldn't look as exciting if you'd were just trying to arrest people, trying to get them to drop their weapons, using pepper spray to subdue them, etc. I suppose we should be thinking of this as "Counter-Strike as an RTS" and kick some notions of realism in the head along the way.
Kick some doors while you're at it!
Lolihopper Sep 3, 2013 @ 6:48pm 
swat teams 100% have the authority to kill
Tarcek Sep 3, 2013 @ 6:49pm 
Dude, theyre being shot at. Of course they shoot to kill in return.
Zebra Sep 3, 2013 @ 7:03pm 
Every suspect is levelling their weapon at all times.

This is not exactly realistic. This has the Rainbow Six problem where everyone excluding hostages are shot on sight, no variables, nothing to consider. Just shot and killed on sight.

A flash bang was thrown into a room. Three suspects blinded. SWAT teams run in and immediately gun them all down. No attempt to do anything other than treat them as targets in a shooting gallery.

Implementing non-lethal methods later in development? This should have been up front and center. SWAT shoots in defense of life, not because it is convenient. Blind suspects being gunned down without any attempt at anything else really doesn't tell me this game is for me.
Wakey Sep 3, 2013 @ 7:27pm 
Originally posted by Gundato:
I never watched the Spoony videos, but I suspect he did what most SWAT 4 players did which was just to roll with the beanbag shotty or pepperspray paint balls as it makes the game a LOT easier as you can shoot on sight (what games have trained us to do) rather than assess the situation before engaging (which is why SWAT 3 has screwed me over in games like CoD and CS :p).
Man... The SWAT games were so freaking boring on those non-lethal servers. Get kicked if you didn't use beanbags or pepperballs. The thing that made those games amazing was when you was head to head with an enemy trying to get him to drop his weapon... And be fast enough if decided he wouldn't :D
solarphoenix7 Sep 3, 2013 @ 7:57pm 
Originally posted by Tripas:
But yeah, I'm guessing that the game wouldn't look as exciting if you'd were just trying to arrest people, trying to get them to drop their weapons, using pepper spray to subdue them, etc. I suppose we should be thinking of this as "Counter-Strike as an RTS" and kick some notions of realism in the head along the way.

I disagree. SWAT 4 seemed like a really interesting game to play because it wasn't just about shooting people, it was about arresting perpetrators. Otherwise it would have been a pretty generic FPS. There were different game mechanics and objectives that were in place because you weren't a soldier who was supposed to kill everything that moved.

To play this game and call yourself a SWAT team, while doing nothing nothing but running and gunning down hallways, seems like a huge missed opportunity. If I wanted a squad-based tactical shooter, I'd play XCOM. If I'm gonna play this, I want to have to pick out perps from civillians, and balance lethality with due process. You have to give me something different.
Nova Terra Sep 3, 2013 @ 9:10pm 
Originally posted by solarphoenix7:
Originally posted by Tripas:
But yeah, I'm guessing that the game wouldn't look as exciting if you'd were just trying to arrest people, trying to get them to drop their weapons, using pepper spray to subdue them, etc. I suppose we should be thinking of this as "Counter-Strike as an RTS" and kick some notions of realism in the head along the way.

I disagree. SWAT 4 seemed like a really interesting game to play because it wasn't just about shooting people, it was about arresting perpetrators. Otherwise it would have been a pretty generic FPS. There were different game mechanics and objectives that were in place because you weren't a soldier who was supposed to kill everything that moved.

To play this game and call yourself a SWAT team, while doing nothing nothing but running and gunning down hallways, seems like a huge missed opportunity. If I wanted a squad-based tactical shooter, I'd play XCOM. If I'm gonna play this, I want to have to pick out perps from civillians, and balance lethality with due process. You have to give me something different.

The thing is, SWAT 4's execution was flawed. While the game was ultiamtely about subduing prepretrators, the game's mechanics made it so it ultimately punished lethal weapon users (in terms of scoring), and they made it very safe and a no-brainer to almost always use less than lethal counterparts.
Rusted Zombie Sep 3, 2013 @ 9:24pm 
In situations where a tactical police unit needs to force entry to subdue suspects, they're gonna go in with the finger on the trigger. If someone has a weapon and they don't drop it immediatly, (and by that I mean right the ♥♥♥♥ now) chances are they are getting shot. Even if a pistol is down at their side, it doesn't take much time to flick a wrist and be pointing at officers able to fire; faster then the brain has time to react anyway. But as it was mentioned earlier, (and no one likes hearing this) it's all situation dependant.
monster Sep 3, 2013 @ 9:50pm 
that's okay, because its a tactical squad strategy game anyway, just let it be fun
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Date Posted: Sep 3, 2013 @ 4:26pm
Posts: 76