Door Kickers > General Discussions > Topic Details
Apocalypse Dec 31, 2013 @ 2:29pm
Street Thugs are still better shots than trained SWAT members...and other old complaints
Title says it. This has been a constant point of frustration with this game for quite a while.

My guys still get dropped across the map by thugs with 9mm uzi's. 9MM Uzi-carrying thug vs SWAT members with M4 Carbine...thug wins. How is that even possible?

Also - In regards to movement and weapons handling.
A trained SWAT member should know how to maneuver himself and his weapon around corners. 9 times out of 10 the thug on the other side will you drop you as soon as you present yourself. Even if you use the control-direction function.

I hope this can get sorted. I made a thread about the same complaints some time ago. Nothing has been fixed.

EDIT - See old thread here:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/248610/discussions/0/864980734658422643/
Last edited by Apocalypse; Dec 31, 2013 @ 2:31pm
Showing 1-15 of 37 comments
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trotskygrad Dec 31, 2013 @ 2:43pm 
uh. no.

looking at the code, the M4 Carbine is a much more effective weapon than the 9mm Mac-10 ever will be. It aims faster and has significantly more accuracy.

As for movement and weapons handling, it's a L2P thing

the game properly simulates weapon collisions, so you need to give your troopers more space around a corner so their weapon is up when they see the enemy, and they don't have to raise it because it was down because of of muzzle length. If you're always making them hug the wall, then turn and face the wall, you can't expect them to have their weapon at the ready, because of simple physical limitations.

The game already simulates things correctly, you're just not playing correctly.
Dzordanas Dec 31, 2013 @ 3:36pm 
Originally posted by Apocalypse:
Title says it. This has been a constant point of frustration with this game for quite a while.

My guys still get dropped across the map by thugs with 9mm uzi's. 9MM Uzi-carrying thug vs SWAT members with M4 Carbine...thug wins. How is that even possible?

Also - In regards to movement and weapons handling.
A trained SWAT member should know how to maneuver himself and his weapon around corners. 9 times out of 10 the thug on the other side will you drop you as soon as you present yourself. Even if you use the control-direction function.

I hope this can get sorted. I made a thread about the same complaints some time ago. Nothing has been fixed.

EDIT - See old thread here:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/248610/discussions/0/864980734658422643/
Well for one. (Though this is not the reason they're dieing in game)
Of course the UZI would win vs an M4 carbine as the M4 is one of the worst, along with the m16, guns in the world. It's innacurate, it jams EVERYWHERE, and is only a tad bit powerful. The UZI, like many European/Mediterranean/Russian guns, never jams, it has huge power and keep in mind it's rate of fire is so fast you could hit a guy 20 times before they even get 2 shots off.
Also, they're not thugs, they're terrorists. Though they may not have as much training as SWAT, you never know. They could have grown up with rifles for all we know, so there have been times were the Terrorists beat the SWAT. As myself, a former Jaegersoldat (Elite unit of the Danish military) we trained with Navy Seals and taught them arctic warfare and same with Delta Force, and I do understand this is SWAT, but there tactics are hardly different, and yet keep in mind hundreds of SEALS and Delta force have been killed in the last 10 years by terrorists, so sometimes the terrorists wins... or maybe they are just good against Americans hehe <_< just my two cents or so.
Apocalypse Dec 31, 2013 @ 5:17pm 
Originally posted by Le Sniper:
Of course the UZI would win vs an M4 carbine as the M4 is one of the worst, along with the m16, guns in the world. It's innacurate, it jams EVERYWHERE, and is only a tad bit powerful.

I think you are dead wrong.

What is your basis with the M4/M16? I've used an M4 for three deployments (two to Iraq, one to Afghanistan) and have never had an issue with it. The M4 is a lightweight weapon, great for medium engagements, and I dont think it's accurately portrayed in game.

sometimes the terrorists wins

In game you almost always lose when you come head to head with a thug - at almost every range.

Last edited by Apocalypse; Dec 31, 2013 @ 5:18pm
Apocalypse Dec 31, 2013 @ 5:19pm 
Originally posted by Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedow:
uh. no.

the game properly simulates weapon collisions, so you need to give your troopers more space around a corner so their weapon is up when they see the enemy, and they don't have to raise it because it was down because of of muzzle length.

There are real-world techniques that a SWAT member would employ to mitigate this issue.
Dzordanas Dec 31, 2013 @ 6:38pm 
Originally posted by Apocalypse:
Originally posted by Le Sniper:
Of course the UZI would win vs an M4 carbine as the M4 is one of the worst, along with the m16, guns in the world. It's innacurate, it jams EVERYWHERE, and is only a tad bit powerful.

I think you are dead wrong.

What is your basis with the M4/M16? I've used an M4 for three deployments (two to Iraq, one to Afghanistan) and have never had an issue with it. The M4 is a lightweight weapon, great for medium engagements, and I dont think it's accurately portrayed in game.

sometimes the terrorists wins

In game you almost always lose when you come head to head with a thug - at almost every range.
As I have said, I too have been in hundreds of situations with the M4 and M16a3(and other variants like the C8) and each test and use was a complete failure. They jam a lot. You are forced to clean them after nearly every engagement and have to unjam the gun a lot. It will never be near as great as guns that NATO countries are now trying to afford to switch to which would be more H&K type guns and such. My personal favorite for all round engagements would be the British L85 variants (:
bogdan1807 Jan 1 @ 3:05am 
Hi Apocalypse,

To be honest DK is not a game you pick up and instantly be good at. I've played probably 40 hours of DK and I still mess up regularly, but 90% of the time are because of my mistakes, 10% is just bad luck.

You seem to have missed the concept of the game. You are the one who has to employ tactics and manuevers for your troopers to be succesful. They are not autonomous, except for walking and shooting you have to do everything else. But that's not bad at all, this way if you mess up you are the only one to blame, for once you are not at the mercy of a dumb AI that get's stuck while trying to take a corner. The game does everything exactly how you tell it.

Also your trooper AI is a better marksman than the enemy but you have to give him the right conditions to be effective. Choose the right weapon, ARs are the weapons of choice if you have long corridors or alleys as they have the best accuracy and shortest aiming time over long distances. For room clearing you have a lot of choices, if you have just one enemy even a pistol(sidearm) is excelent but my weapon of choice for CQB is the suppressed MP-7. The semi-auto shotgun is also and excelent choice as you can take out multiple enemies at once just remember to take a wide turn.

Take a look at the map, make a plan for each of your trooper and equip them accordingly. But most important tactic is to suppress the enemy. Even if your officers should be much better trained than the enemy, you should always avoid starting shootouts, your best chance to survive is when the enemy doesn't fire at all.

Take a look at some of the videos posted on the official forum, you'll watch some perfectly executed missions and maybe even learn a trick or two.
trotskygrad Jan 1 @ 9:21am 
Originally posted by Apocalypse:
Originally posted by Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedow:
uh. no.

the game properly simulates weapon collisions, so you need to give your troopers more space around a corner so their weapon is up when they see the enemy, and they don't have to raise it because it was down because of of muzzle length.

There are real-world techniques that a SWAT member would employ to mitigate this issue.

the point is the SWAT troopers are sort of like robots in this game. I'm aware of real techniques such as CAR stance, but in game it's simulated like that, so you have to work around it. If you can find a way to implement such techniques without it being completely automated, I think you shoud make a suggestion :D
trotskygrad Jan 1 @ 9:22am 
Originally posted by Le Sniper:
As I have said, I too have been in hundreds of situations with the M4 and M16a3(and other variants like the C8) and each test and use was a complete failure. They jam a lot. You are forced to clean them after nearly every engagement and have to unjam the gun a lot. It will never be near as great as guns that NATO countries are now trying to afford to switch to which would be more H&K type guns and such. My personal favorite for all round engagements would be the British L85 variants (:

stop trying to pretend you're something you aren't
Dzordanas Jan 2 @ 5:08pm 
Originally posted by ulitsa Stromynka, 27:
Originally posted by Le Sniper:
As I have said, I too have been in hundreds of situations with the M4 and M16a3(and other variants like the C8) and each test and use was a complete failure. They jam a lot. You are forced to clean them after nearly every engagement and have to unjam the gun a lot. It will never be near as great as guns that NATO countries are now trying to afford to switch to which would be more H&K type guns and such. My personal favorite for all round engagements would be the British L85 variants (:

stop trying to pretend you're something you aren't
How am I? Do you doubt that I have used an M4 or M16? OR are you just ignorant? Please state facts not what daddy told you. I know (clearly you are American) and you hate admitting you're firearms are terrible, you have obviously never used an AKM/74 or any other variant than your own have, hell, for all I know you're a 12 year old claiming he's a total badass. Before you reply, think about how stupid you are. Thanks.
trotskygrad Jan 3 @ 9:14am 
Originally posted by Le Sniper:
Originally posted by ulitsa Stromynka, 27:

stop trying to pretend you're something you aren't
How am I? Do you doubt that I have used an M4 or M16? OR are you just ignorant? Please state facts not what daddy told you. I know (clearly you are American) and you hate admitting you're firearms are terrible, you have obviously never used an AKM/74 or any other variant than your own have, hell, for all I know you're a 12 year old claiming he's a total badass. Before you reply, think about how stupid you are. Thanks.

for the record I think the best service rifle in service is the AK-74M, so don't make assumptions about what my beliefs are. However I also do believe that the AR-15 platform is a decent enough weapon system. I never made any claims about any service I've done, in fact I'll say it here. I've never served in the military and I've only shot guns recreationally. I have shot semi-automatic versions of the AR-15 and AK (in 7.62 and in 5.45).

Apocalypse in this thread seems to be an actual veteran, and he disagrees. Unless you've served for longer, in positions that required you to use your weapon more, I don't think you're qualified to contradict him.
Last edited by trotskygrad; Jan 3 @ 9:15am
trotskygrad Jan 3 @ 9:21am 
After the cold war ended, Mikhail Kalashnikov visited Britain. He was taken to the Royal Ordnance factory in Nottingham, and shown the SA80. He looked at it for a while, and finally said: "You must have some very clever soldiers."
Avtomat Jan 3 @ 9:33am 
Originally posted by Le Sniper:
Originally posted by ulitsa Stromynka, 27:

stop trying to pretend you're something you aren't
How am I? Do you doubt that I have used an M4 or M16? OR are you just ignorant? Please state facts not what daddy told you. I know (clearly you are American) and you hate admitting you're firearms are terrible, you have obviously never used an AKM/74 or any other variant than your own have, hell, for all I know you're a 12 year old claiming he's a total badass. Before you reply, think about how stupid you are. Thanks.

Honestly man, before you go around calling other people ignorant and stupid, you should take a look at what the hell you've said in your posts.

You claim to be a veteran of the danish armed forces, but then you say things like the AR platform rifles are horribly inaccurate and jam like every second shot, and that the UZI is a better weapon than the M4/16 because of its ROF and "power". I hope you do know that a 9x19 round has SIGNIFICANTLY lower stopping power, and much worse ballisic characteristics than basicly any version of the 5.56x45.
And then, after ♥♥♥♥♥ing about the M4/16's unreliability, you say your favourite rifle is the L85, which is, actually the MOST UNRELIABLE NATO service rifle.


Oh and this bit about the UZI "[The UZI's] rate of fire is so fast you could hit a guy 20 times before they even get 2 shots off." just makes you sound like a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ call of duty veteran. So if anybody, its you who is the 12 year old wannabe in here.
MisterElm Jan 3 @ 11:48am 
Originally posted by Le Sniper:
As myself, a former Jaegersoldat (Elite unit of the Danish military) we trained with Navy Seals and taught them arctic warfare and same with Delta Force,


Huehuehuehue

HAHAHAH

HAAAHAHAHA

Really??? Really?!!? Is this real life?
Dzordanas Jan 3 @ 1:34pm 
Originally posted by MisterElm:
Originally posted by Le Sniper:
As myself, a former Jaegersoldat (Elite unit of the Danish military) we trained with Navy Seals and taught them arctic warfare and same with Delta Force,


Huehuehuehue

HAHAHAH

HAAAHAHAHA

Really??? Really?!!? Is this real life?
Mhm. Well, this is steam, not irl. :D
Dzordanas Jan 3 @ 1:38pm 
Originally posted by ulitsa Stromynka, 27:
Originally posted by Le Sniper:
How am I? Do you doubt that I have used an M4 or M16? OR are you just ignorant? Please state facts not what daddy told you. I know (clearly you are American) and you hate admitting you're firearms are terrible, you have obviously never used an AKM/74 or any other variant than your own have, hell, for all I know you're a 12 year old claiming he's a total badass. Before you reply, think about how stupid you are. Thanks.

for the record I think the best service rifle in service is the AK-74M, so don't make assumptions about what my beliefs are. However I also do believe that the AR-15 platform is a decent enough weapon system. I never made any claims about any service I've done, in fact I'll say it here. I've never served in the military and I've only shot guns recreationally. I have shot semi-automatic versions of the AR-15 and AK (in 7.62 and in 5.45).

Apocalypse in this thread seems to be an actual veteran, and he disagrees. Unless you've served for longer, in positions that required you to use your weapon more, I don't think you're qualified to contradict him.
I don't know if I have been in positions to USE the weapon more, but he was only using his M4 in two places (Both in which are desert and fields), I've only used the M4 in Afghanistan once which was when we were in Camp Viking for 3 months.

I've had to use the M4 and a lot of different terrains, obviously I cannot mention them, but nevertheless, let me tell you they fail substantially in deep forests, jungles, and after coming out of water or even if so being touched on the barrell with mud. If he actually was in service, I think he'd of known how undescribably bad they are.
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Date Posted: Dec 31, 2013 @ 2:29pm
Posts: 37