corvah Feb 11 @ 12:43pm
To the dev
The idea behind this game is awesome. the mixing of game mechanics and the setting are great. I would really like to see a sequel with a bigger budget, what are your plans? Are you planning on maybe a kickstarter campaign?
This game's got a lot of potential.
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JabberwockyX  [developer] Feb 11 @ 2:19pm 
Hi Corvakiin -
Thanks for saying so! It was one of those game ideas which had been lurking in my brain for years and years before I finally got a chance to make it.

About a sequel with a bigger budget - you and me both, my friend. :)

As it stands right now, it won't be my next game. Here's why. When I started Salvation Prophecy, nobody was making big budget space games. So it was a perfect opportunity for an indie like me. I worked on it for over 5 years, and took a lot of pretty big risks (both design-wise, and personal/financial) along the way. I'm proud of what it is, but I agree there is absolutely so much more that could be done in a game as expansive as Salvation Prophecy. Especially with a bigger budget.

Now, we have two of the most anticipated space sim games of all time on the horizon (Star Citizen, Elite: Dangerous). I can't imagine many people paying attention to indie space games after their release. At least, not if you compete directly with what those games offer. Even if I did manage a successful kickstarter, I doubt it would achieve 1% of what Star Citizen raised in funding ($38 million at last count). Going head-to-head against a game with that much hype and money would be suicide.

Still, I would absolutely love to expand the universe of Salvation Prophecy with a solid budget. For now, my plan is to work on something else until Star Citizen and Elite come out. Then, based on what those games offer, see what opportunities there may be to create something different and unique.
corvah Feb 11 @ 10:31pm 
Originally posted by JabberwockyX:
Hi Corvakiin -
Thanks for saying so! It was one of those game ideas which had been lurking in my brain for years and years before I finally got a chance to make it.

About a sequel with a bigger budget - you and me both, my friend. :)

As it stands right now, it won't be my next game. Here's why. When I started Salvation Prophecy, nobody was making big budget space games. So it was a perfect opportunity for an indie like me. I worked on it for over 5 years, and took a lot of pretty big risks (both design-wise, and personal/financial) along the way. I'm proud of what it is, but I agree there is absolutely so much more that could be done in a game as expansive as Salvation Prophecy. Especially with a bigger budget.

Now, we have two of the most anticipated space sim games of all time on the horizon (Star Citizen, Elite: Dangerous). I can't imagine many people paying attention to indie space games after their release. At least, not if you compete directly with what those games offer. Even if I did manage a successful kickstarter, I doubt it would achieve 1% of what Star Citizen raised in funding ($38 million at last count). Going head-to-head against a game with that much hype and money would be suicide.

Still, I would absolutely love to expand the universe of Salvation Prophecy with a solid budget. For now, my plan is to work on something else until Star Citizen and Elite come out. Then, based on what those games offer, see what opportunities there may be to create something different and unique.
So maybe in a few years you'll go back to SP?
JabberwockyX  [developer] Feb 11 @ 11:06pm 
Absolutely!
I have ideas all the time I'd love to explore. It's hard not to work on it now. ;)
Telemak Feb 19 @ 8:08pm 
Heya,
There will still be people to support indie games, especialy when they are multi-OS and a sequel with an emotional affect displayed to particular characters.
Add a moddable function and you are the king.
d10sfan Mar 21 @ 10:20am 
Would be great to see other type of games in the same universe possibly
XxNightwalk Apr 23 @ 2:25am 
I'm going to say good luck

but even though fighting directly against star citizen would be suicide dont forget that when you arraived eve online was already there

but most of all you have a great concept that would need more budget indeed but most of all an other engine and mod support, oh and add more variety in the game (different ships, weapon types and infantry classes and vehicules)

yes this may seem to be allot but by using unreal engine for example you will have better graphics, better physics and more (I dont look to graphics when I launch a game but some people do and even unconsiously people will find it more difficult to enjoy)

and then for vehicules, classes, etc... dont forget you already have the base and now all you have to do is add stuff on top


so no launching at the same time as star ctizen is not that suicidal (launching afetr may be better because you would be more visible but as you dont have the same concept people could not compare it to star citizen)
JabberwockyX  [developer] Apr 23 @ 10:48am 
Hi XxNightwalk -
I didn't feel like Salvation Prophecy was in direct competition with Eve Online. There's the single-player / multi-player thing. But also, Salvation Prophecy is very action oriented, whereas people often describe Eve Online as a "spreadsheet game". It's all about numbers, and less so about action, aim, and twitch-based reflexes, as much of Salvation Prophecy's combat is.

I totally agree, I would love to create an expanded version of the game with all the art variety (ships, vehicles, etc) that you suggest. I hope some day the finances make sense for me to do so. 3D artwork is expensive. Salvation Prophecy already has far more art expenses than the average indie game. But maybe the future will allow me to revisit Salvation Prophecy with a AAA budget. It is something I'd love to do! (Incidentally, Star Citizen has received somewhere around $40+ million in crowd funding - that's a tough gig to follow!)
XxNightwalk Apr 24 @ 12:20am 
Originally posted by JabberwockyX:
Hi XxNightwalk -
I didn't feel like Salvation Prophecy was in direct competition with Eve Online. There's the single-player / multi-player thing. But also, Salvation Prophecy is very action oriented, whereas people often describe Eve Online as a "spreadsheet game". It's all about numbers, and less so about action, aim, and twitch-based reflexes, as much of Salvation Prophecy's combat is.

I totally agree, I would love to create an expanded version of the game with all the art variety (ships, vehicles, etc) that you suggest. I hope some day the finances make sense for me to do so. 3D artwork is expensive. Salvation Prophecy already has far more art expenses than the average indie game. But maybe the future will allow me to revisit Salvation Prophecy with a AAA budget. It is something I'd love to do! (Incidentally, Star Citizen has received somewhere around $40+ million in crowd funding - that's a tough gig to follow!)



indeed, reaching 44million$ is quite difficult but for the finances I suppose you are already thinking about kickstarter and thats a great idea


you may not reach the millions but you can get at least 100 thousand + $

take the example of kingdom come deliverance, they almost reached the million $ although they never did a game before and they were a whole new studio with no great names in it but they succeeded in their campaign

you have a small base already (thanks to salvation prophecy) and you can also wave the great game you already done and most of all if you already started the developpement of the game you can always show what you have already done and last but not least if you put your next game on steam greenlight you wait a month or two so your greenlight is well known and you put a little info about your kickstarter and people will come to support financially your game


good luck anyway on your future projects
JabberwockyX  [developer] Apr 24 @ 3:00am 
Thanks for your thoughts XxNightwalk. I appreciate getting other folks thoughts on this.
DedZedNub Apr 24 @ 11:14am 
$40 Million, sheesh. Now that is something to go up against. I can see your reticence. It's a shame that often the $40 million is wasted too much on chrome and fancy things and not on gameplay, however. Large teams sometimes don't work well at the intersection or connection points also when making software. Things get lost during the hand-off and fall into the cracks.

But, seriously, you've only recently moved to your game to Steam, JabberwockyX, so I'll give my own quick feeling on this. What you may, and I hope, are seeing is that being on Steam, just like earlier in a smaller way when you placed your game on Gamersgate, aids the game being better known, and getting more traffic and discussion of the game. Gamersgate's interface, for whatever reason, however, makes player reviews key, more so I think than even Steam. With Steam, the forums are so accessible (although sometimes with high traffic games so quick moving you almost don't care to search even) that for me the forums and the forums' ability to link to any pictures, examples, web links, etc. makes them more key than the reviews. They both are very important, but the point is Steam has a very easy to use and interlinked community. On the more active games, you want to see a Guide, check for it in the Steam tab at top, otherwise look for a forum post and a weblink to a recommended link, then and only then do you go to gamefaqs.com or some other site. That's not the way I'd do it on Gamersgate, for example. On Gamersgate, I'd read the reviews, then off for a guide to either Steam or gamefaqs.com, see the difference. Gog's forums are also key, but it's a touch harder to navigate than Steam.

Why is this important to mention? Well what you have probably also seen is the power that a Steam sale has. Traffic increases and it's highlighted on the sale list and the newly updated list on the front page, and the news if one dares to scroll it, and the wishlist will email you if it is on it --- the result is a ton of traffic for your game. That traffic alone now is connected to the word of mouth power of the forums, and Steam magnifies this up the wazoo with its forums and ease of connecting to most Steam and weblinks are easy in the posts. So, this is where, a game like your own gains tremendously.

But as you well can see, there is a massive penalty to. Steam brings most traffic when you put something on sale or update it. It highlights good opinions and updates of any sort. It magnifies developer posting, explanations, availability, and kindness (for lack of a better word). All this is good, mostly. But it also highlights the one big negative, price.

So to build traffic and awareness of your game, nothing currently beats Steam and a sale. Second is activity and updates of any kind. But that means you have also devalued your likely price for that. Because not only will the user remember that sale price if he couldn't buy, but so will some Steam news archives, so will any saved wishlist emails, and so forth. I like this myself as a customer, and I try to make a rule that unless I really love the game, I will never, ever buy anything from Steam that isn't at least 50% off. Realistically, I wait and try to pick up the game at 66 to 75% off, and that usually will occur about the second or third major twice a year grand Steam Sale, which is Winter after Thanksgiving, and Summer starting a bit before school gets out or so.

That's a major issue. Now, I believe you have said that your game has been out for a while, perhaps up to two years. I think that's a good sweetspot, actually, to move to Steam and have a sale and get this sort of traffic. Your game and your answers on the forum, well they work well with that.

So to me, and this is the key answer I feel to this kickstarter and other funding stuff, I feel that this is the key middle step. This is how you build the interest and a following that makes you have the word of mouth to then try another funding method or interest gained it having some Early Access or Kickstarter type thing going.

But you, I know, can already see how this can lead to some issues or concerns. How active can a developer really be on the forums. Activity for even a lame-oh patch, or a lame DLC can temporarily reward the developer with traffic on his game. If the game is good it may not be really hurt by this, but still it can hurt after the fact if the DLC or patch are weak. Yet, also it can be still rewarding otherwise because activity is the trigger for the Steam megaphone to say to everyone, hey take a look at this on that game you were interested in or never heard of.

So, you can see how that already becomes like a part-time job, or requires some real organization and discipline, if not some help in some way. Either paid or unpaid or family.

Whether or not you want to add modules like DLC or patches to the game also adds to work or not.

But as the previous poster said, you have a base. My point is that this is a great place for you to be expanding the base. This, I feel, is the reasonable next step. It's after the Steam effect has worked for a few months to maybe six months that you will be better able to gauge things.

I know my posts are incredibly long-winded. I'm trying to get across a feeling as well as explain, thus the problem. It's also why I'm trying to get across that, for me, on an Intel HD 2500 so far I have no issues, because the low cost sector is a key portion of the market for a less funded but enjoyable game. Also, by the way, the game seems to run just as fast under Steam than in the demo, not always the case with all games.

But I'm older, over 50. I don't know about that Kickstarter thing at this stage (you would know much better). You also have another project in mind and probably a full time job. I'm actually amazed and impressed by what you accomplished with C++ and Ogre etc in 5 years. Seems to me you have discipline, organization, good vision, talent, skill, and energy. That's pretty impressive. I have some background in programming, but I mostly studied it way back and gave it up after college (before object oriented was mainstream, that far back). But I recall many saying forget Ogre, you got around that. C++, great language for the current environment, games using calls to other software when needed and lots of memory onboard computers these days, and almost as good as assembly for everything else. But still, that was some haul given what you made. And, I'm sorry, but it seems damn well optimized to me, the only thing I find sort of weak is soldier animation, but honestly you probably started out, as you indicated, as a space sim guy, there are not really animations in space sim ... so given that, hey ... like ... wow?!

Now I know some of these animations and other things are canned maybe, or simple algorithms, or maybe others did them for you, but whatever ... 5 years and it is this good. If nothing else you know how to manage your time, your resources, and your vision. That's the key thing.

I'd go with your usual way of measuring things and if nothing else your gut on this. But I'd wait until you feel the full Steam Effect and see if it really pays off and how much of a following you develop. I have no idea what your other project is, in the interim, and I have no need to know. I'd guess probably something simpler designed for the tablet or flash player just to learn how and perhaps learn another part of making games that you feel adds to your later capability. If so, more power to you. The question soon coming up, though, is whether or not the Steam Effect and other effects maybe bring this Salvation Prophecy to a critical mass where it may be a good idea or might seem a good idea and be a big mistake, to go a bit counter to those plans, and put the activity back into it or some Kickstarter or other fund plan to work on another project or even the one you are planning to try.

But, I'd say that's something you'll better know a bit down the line. All things like this have a moment when the tempo or crest has to be realized and taken advantage of or just let it pass. All I can say is use the same things you did up to now the last five years to manage your effort and put that into the decision. I think that's a time-off yet. I don't envy any such decision either. But it is remarkable how much you have accomplished already.

I'd guess you are in the 30s to maybe 40ish, energy tends to suggest younger. For five years you'd want to see a funding of at least, what, $200k just to quit your job and go full-time. If its your dream, maybe a touch less, and since you can go full bore, maybe a 3 year stint, so maybe $100k, but that's with no help. No help in marketing other than this deal, no outside help other than like what you did before picking the right software and using it your way (the user experience is great, the GUI works nice, HELP/OPTIONS/SAVE all right there, game seems to go on in background or paused background -- sweet and no lag with the pause or esc overlay -- yes). How much of that initial work can you build on. The knowledge of the GUI etc, probably most. Algorithms and display systems used or built in Ogre, a lot. But that's your calculation and depends on your organization while building and thinking. Another posted somewhere how well you commented your work, I might have to take a look at that, be interesting to get a sense of. That all helps.

But still, man o man, that's a big move, that's some sort of risk. At that point, well, the dream is out there, like the first cable car over the ski slopes, everybody and his dog knows what you are up to, know easy going back now. Then again, you've already achieved most every person's dream, a completed selling game. So it's not the end of the world. Tough call if you are a married guy or gal. Time to split the difference at most then, I think, play it a bit safe.

Anyway, see what the effect is over the next few months. And consider some of what I said, even though you already have, about how activity and those examples work the Steam system and the pluses and minuses. That might effect how you decide to play things short term, as a working strategy, depending on the magnification that these new outlets provide.

Sorry for the long post, might not have been what you are looking for. Hey, at least you are in the arena, adventuring in the higher country. No more simple caves for you and keeping your head down in the dark. Respect to ya.
Last edited by DedZedNub; Apr 24 @ 11:29am
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