Kingdom Rush > General Discussions > Topic Details
mknight735 Jan 23 @ 1:20pm
Balance suggestions including a bug fix.
While Kingdom Rush has some stellar balances, there are still nuisances going on in the Steam version that I need to suggest.

*Bug fix: please for the love of God EXPAND THE DAMAGE RADIUS OF THE AREA OF EFFECT ATTACKS. As it is, they're a pathetic joke, such that a Skeleton can be right near the center of a HOWITZER blast and still manage to have full health. Yes, Rain of Fire and cannon blasts need to be condemned to Valardul precise to do any damage. Add to it that the enemies like to enter spread, most notable in instances like Icewind Pass's Wave 12, which is supposed to be built to ask if you have some Big Bertha action going on (although accepting other builds), and things get out of hand fast.
*Have Musketeers' attacks (all of them), Arcane Wizards' basic attack, and Barbarians' melee attacks (but NOT Throwing Axes) all ignore up to 30 points of the targeted DEF stat. All 3 have flow problems at the moment that even extend past the buff idea, deserve to at least be able to hurt armor guys, and have doing that make actual sense anyway. Musketeers can't even handle floods either way so hurting Dark Slayers should be plausible, Arcane Wizards can lose their immediate damage because a demon was in front and shouldn't be penalized so harshly for that happening, and Barbarians should be able to hurt Dark Knights.
*Sorcerer Mage should deal less damage. I would recommend 35~65 base and 8/s Curse, as opposed to the current 42~78 base and 10/s Curse. They would still control armor baddies, they would still be the go-to mage for groups, and they would still do some hurt on Magic DEF enemies, but they would not be able to control the singleton enemies such as Troll Chieftains and Rocket Riders nearly as easily. The Golem also should be given an actual respawn time so that players would want to actually maneuver it.
*Wrath of the Forest should be nerfed. It should ignore only a portion of the DEF rating, not all of it. Levels 2 and 3 also should cost more at 200G each. The reason being that WotF is incredibly synergetic with other towers regardless, whereas Musketeer Garrison's special abilities has a problem with redundancy going on.
*Generally tone up More Axes and tone down Throwing Axes. More Axes is only good with micromanagement to make sure the Barbarians stay alive and keep dealing damage. It seems good because it's crowd control, but the fact is that it can control only 3 baddies at a time and the Barbarians themselves die after extended combat, plus MA can become bad against demons because you can inadvertently kill them and cause the Barbarians to take the explosions. Throwing Axes also requires micromanagement and doesn't seem as good against floods, but it is innately safer, has more potential range than MUSKETEERS with some actual control over who they attack, and can hit flying baddies. I would say decrease MA's first level cost considerably, and increase TA's costs for levels a bit and decrease TA's damage from (24~32) + 10L to (16~24) + 10L.
*And please for the love of God review the Skeletons and ESPECIALLY the Skeleton Knights. As well as the bonus levels and their exclusive enemies. They're generally more dangerous than they should be.

I will say, though, that you did do some welcome things for rebalancing:
*Rain of Fire dealing less damage, period. (This seems bad, but aside from the God forsaken radius nerf of area attacks that proves to be too much, less RoF damage has not proven unmanageable.)
*Musketeers having DEF ignoring at all, though the amount is underwhelming.
*Damage round-up, which even tones up both Arcane Wizard and Tesla x104, though at the cost of weakening DEF stats.
*Big Bertha's Cluster Bombs Xtreme costing more while Dragonbreath Launcher costs less AND deals more damage.
*Tesla x104's Overcharge dealing less damage. Given that Overcharge is a powerful incomparable aspect, it works out just fine.
Showing 1-15 of 18 comments
< >
mknight735 Jan 23 @ 7:09pm 
Also, soldiers won't necessarily engage enemies who move right through where they're supposed to guard. They need their detection range to cover probably 70% of the road's width so that they'll actually do that. It's not a problem that comes up often, but it's around on the Dark Tower for when I place a Barracks building on the point right next to the very bottom-right to cover both the armor path and the exit, because placing them as close to the opposite end of the road when placing them around the exit won't suffice if enemies are hugging the bloody south part of the road.
mknight735 Jan 25 @ 1:11pm 
A couple more (non-bug-related) rebalance suggestions related to late game enemies: Demon Lords should have an 80G bounty instead of 60G, and Demon Hounds 30G instead of 25G. Here's why for each of them:
*Demon Lords are few in number but already give an indefinite buff that can't be used against them, where the Troll Chieftain's temporary speed jumps for his minions only serves to make them rush into kill zones and all the other stat boosts are a farce to care about when you should focus on keeping the Troll Chieftain isolated. It's not an unmanageable problem about the bounty thing, but Demon Lords take off enough lives on escape to warrant a better compensation for what they do.
*Demon Hounds speak for themselves given that they have FOUR good stats (HP, ATK, MDF, AND SPD) in addition to the explosions. and it still plenty of archer firepower to get rid of those pains. They're higher in number but still few enough that a 5G bounty increase doesn't add up to anything ridiculous. It's only relevant in waves where there will be plenty of them, which you ought to be rewarded for beating in the first place. They're comparable to Winter Wolves who have the same stats but Demon Hounds trade some (not even that much) mobility for the death explosion ability. They shouldn't have a higher bounty because they're still slower, but it should approach anywhere near as much for all the problems they cause. At least Winter Wolves don't cause Holy Strike to backlash.

Now yes, increasing demon bounties does have the problem of toning up Tesla indirectly by making its weaknesses less horrifying, but honestly, what I'm suggesting is kept under control either by the Lords' and Hounds' lack of overwhelming numbers, or by the innate difficulty of the waves involving them such that you are punished for NOT having Tesla out and about by that point regardless. The latter suggestion is, in fact, the result of bad luck of too many Demon Hounds spawning from the summoning circle when trying out a Barbarian setup on Flash Dark Tower, at a point where I'd have Tesla rolling by that point.
mknight735 Jan 27 @ 5:35pm 
So here's a basic list:
*Bug fix, top priority: fix the damage radius of cannons and Rain of Fire
*Bug fix: have soldiers detect enemies more easily
*All attacks of Musketeer Garrison, Arcane Wizard, and Barbarian Mead Hall to all ignore 30 points of DEF/MDEF
*Sorcerer Mage's BD 42~78 -> 35~65 and Curse DPS changed 10 -> 8
*Golem respawn time 8s -> 14s
*Wrath of the Forest 2nd/3rd level cost 150G -> 200G, also don't fully ignore DEF
*Holy Strike damage (25~45) * L -> (30~50) * L
*More Axes first level cost 300G -> 200G
*Throwing Axes ATK (24~32)+10L -> (16~24)+10L (only increase the price tags for the higher levels)
*Tesla x104 basic cost 375G -> 400G (everything else is fine)
*Demon Lord's Bounty 60G -> 80G, Demon Hound's Bounty 25G -> 30G
*Review Skeletons and Skeleton Knights
*Review bonus levels and enemies
Last edited by mknight735; Feb 2 @ 6:07pm
mknight735 Feb 1 @ 12:51pm 
Is anybody going to respond?
Zigi Feb 6 @ 10:51pm 
Yeah this game needs balance adjustments IMHO. Some levels need an incredibly specific strat which only becomes apparent at late waves not to be completely run over, which makes the later game a lot more frustrating than other tower defense games. Which is a shame, because otherwise this is a great TD. Also some towers are borderline useless. Cannons only become effective when turned into tesla's or the long range missiles.
Last edited by Zigi; Feb 6 @ 10:52pm
Ironhide Game Studio  [developer] Feb 7 @ 6:33am 
Hi all! Our developing team is checking your suggestions which are always welcome :)
Thanks!
mknight735 Feb 9 @ 4:48am 
Well, as long as you are. At the very least, fix those two God forsaken bugs, along with the two others I suggested in my other topic. I actually like that Rain of Fire deals less damage. It's that bloody garbage hit detection that I don't like.

Oh, and as for the recent changes to the TLDR list:
*Barbarians' Throwing Axes under the suggested damage nerf can go ahead and be included in the general Barbarians buff of attacks ignoring some DEF. Under the damage nerf, it ends up with lower DPS than Musketeers, in addition to the higher total cost AND the fact that it's still a Barracks tower. Musketeers will still be able to get any flow going since they don't need micromanagement and the DEF partial ignore buff would still stop shots from being wasted as much.
*Paladins' Holy Strike gets a damage buff suggestion simply because it still has some painful flow problems. It doesn't have to be some super-awesome buff but let's look at the pros and cons:
+Ignores DEF
+Hits crowds
-Triggers only about 5% of attacks
-Can't touch flying enemies
-Requires soldiers
-Paladins have an increased spawn time
That's plenty of problems going on.
Zigi Feb 9 @ 6:11am 
Originally posted by Ironhide Game Studio:
Hi all! Our developing team is checking your suggestions which are always welcome :)
Thanks!

Thank you for being active on forums and checking our suggestions. :)

Please don't get me wrong this is already one of the most enjoyable tower defense games. With a few balance adjustments and an endless mode this could be one of the best ever!

Are you working on part 2 yet because I almost 100%-ed this one and I am stoked for some more Kingdom Rush!
Zigi Feb 9 @ 6:16am 
So my balance suggestions:

I agree with the OP that Sorcerers are pretty OP since they synergise so well with themselves and require no backup tower to be effective. AOE is underpowered, cannons are almost useless untill fully powered up to tesla or long range missile. And I have never been able to use Musketeers effectively.

Difficulty levels on PC would be welcome since I found it almost impossible to do the later levels until I found an almost abusive strat with the OP towers. Tesla's and sorcerers FTW.
mknight735 Feb 10 @ 8:41am 
@Zigi
Agreed about the Sorcerers. It's not even the simple self-synergy without sufficient checks that makes Sorcerer OP. There's the synergy with towers like Rangers' Hideout that needs to be noted as well. Both are fine as concepts but need to be checked.

Also agreed about the AOE in general. Their hit detection needs to be patched.

Musketeers just need to partial-ignore enough DEF with their attacks and they're set. They already are handy for wrecking Rocket Riders. But yeah, the fact that Musketeers are positional as is when their DPS is WEAKER than Rangers' and they don't have impressive enough special abilities is a problem. With the ability to actually do something to armor baddies, Musketeers stop precious wasting shots just because of some Marauder nuisance who wandered right into their range.

Tesla can feel overpowered at times, but it's still very expensive. If anything, I would buff the competition far more than I would nerf Tesla. Tesla still costs almost twice as much as an advanced Barracks building or Archer tower. It's only when star upgrades get involved when Tesla starts getting out of control. Without star upgrades, Tesla needs support to even control 2 Demon Hounds. There's your answer: Tesla can't handle durable enemy clusters.

Basically, you see why I would suggest things like the armor half-ignore stuff: the towers in question become more able to compete with Tesla, and have their need for Sorcerer Mage support reduced. Rangers Hideout could only need to be nerfed, although it shouldn't be a super-awesome nerf at all, barring Wrath of the Forest's upper levels having so much synergy with other towers. Big Bertha has Cluster Bombs Xtreme, which is still self-explanatory even with the reload time problems. And Paladins sponge abuse like water, so the only change I would suggest there is buffing Holy Strike because of all its weaknesses. Although Shield of Valor is certainly tempting to suggest a revamp; it's not even practical to use at all against Marauders, who have only 20 average ATK anyway.

Just as long as Tesla and Sorcerers start having competition at least.

As for the difficulties thing, yeah, add in the difficulty levels. But also get those God forsaken Skeleton Knights and bonus levels under control for Hard difficulty.
Zigi Feb 10 @ 9:18am 
Yeah I don't think anything needs to be nerfed, besides the effectiveness of sorcerers on their own perhaps. Why not give the armor reducing effect to the Arcane wizards instead? That would make it effective to combine it with other towers, as is, if I use it at all it's just to add extra DPS after a chokepoint for security.

The Tesla's are extremely effective for the weaker enemies but don't do anything to slow bosses down, combined with their high price I don't think they are really OP, just that some of the other towers like musketeers are underpowered in damage and utility in comparison.

By the way, one Tesla may not do much to stop Hellhounds, but two or three in a row will. =D
Last edited by Zigi; Feb 10 @ 9:18am
mknight735 Feb 11 @ 11:21am 
Simple answer to your Q is flavor. Sorcerer Mages wouldn't be Sorcerer Mages if they didn't have the Curse status. And they ARE introduced after the game has looked into your ability to handle armor baddies with Icewind Pass's Dark Knight wave. I'd rather just reduce the Sorcerer Mage's damage output as a whole, both base damage and Curse damage. It should be a bad solo tower before getting the Golem, which also should be given an increased respawn time and regen rate to cut down on its mindless usage.

Arcane Wizard, however, should be able to ignore a decent amount of Magic DEF, so as to avoid being gimped by Winter Wolves or Demon baddies. It would indirectly tone up Teleport as well, because the Arcane Wizard would care less about what it shoots at. But just the damage to those jackholes would make it better support for non-archer towers which have to worry about durable enemies to begin with.

Multiple Teslas are expensive. You can buy a more versatile combination of things with the required funds. I certainly would so that I could additionally bust Dark Slayers, who are even harder to bring down and just plain ask what arrows are. Let me provide the number of hits required on average from Tesla's innate attack against certain key enemies, assuming (4~7) * 15 base damage, along with how fast the enemy is:
*Winter Wolves - 5 hits, SPD 2
*Demon Hounds - 5 hits, SPD 1.5
*Rocket Riders - 5 hits, SPD 1
*Dark Slayer (95% DEF) - 23 hits, SPD 0.7
*Dark Knight (80% DEF) - 6 hits, SPD 0.7
*Marauder (60% DEF) - 10 hits, SPD 0.8
*Yeti - 25 hits, SPD 0.7
*Magma Elemental - 31 hits, SPD 0.5

So yeah, enemies like Marauders start giving Tesla problems. You already need to isolate them, but you can't do that with Tesla until you get Overcharge, spending even more money. However, Tesla IS good against Rocket Riders, no questions asked.
Last edited by mknight735; Feb 11 @ 2:36pm
Zigi Feb 11 @ 11:30am 
Originally posted by AzzKicker:
me thinks, some people like to hear themselves talk

That may be the reason you are postin, the reason we are posting is because we love the game and would like the balance to be improved to make it even better. Can't believe I'm replying to a troll though, so good job.

[edit] Ah, the troll thought better of it and deleted his own post, that is a rare occurence.
Last edited by Zigi; Feb 11 @ 11:32am
mknight735 Feb 24 @ 8:39am 
Indeed we like the game and want the balance improved.

I need to point out that Sniper Shot is much more useful for the consolation damage, because the 1HK just doesn't flow. Every 250G gives you only one, maybe two 1HKs every 60-70 seconds. It's the least expensive 1HK method and potentially the fastest reloading, sure, but it's still luck-based. There is, however, a reliable reason to get Sniper Shot at all: the consolation damage.

I'm not sure how the consolation damage is calculated on the Steam version, but on Flash it shows signs that it's calculated as such:
40~60 + (Max HP / 5)
I would revamp it to be like this:
(1+L) * [35~65 + (Max HP / 10)]
Where L is Sniper Shot's level.

Of course, DEF should STILL influence it, so that it's not ridiculous against something like Dark Slayers, although the DEF partial-ignore should still be around.

With that calculation, moderate HP baddies would take both decent immediate damage and better, though still not Godly, DPS, and leveled Sniper Shot can be useful without luck. The idea of knocking off half the health of a Yeti or nearly half the health of a Magma Elemental in a single blow is there, but I would find it be balanced by having to spend nearly 1000G on individual control, "upgrading" a freaking Sharpshooter at that.

Actually, that provides the simple explanation for the Musketeer needing to be toned up in general: the ease of ending up with a power overfocus. If you have only one Sharpshooter and no other archer towers, you won't have anything else that can fire fast, causing vulnerability to floods.
Last edited by mknight735; Feb 24 @ 8:40am
Blowfish64 Feb 24 @ 9:48pm 
Why all the hate for musketeers? Their headshot special is incredibly effective. 6000 damage shot, how is that underpowered?
Showing 1-15 of 18 comments
< >
Per page: 15 30 50