Democracy 3 > General Discussions > Topic Details
lotrofan15 May 21 @ 9:40pm
Bias Against Conservatives?
Ive heard alot of good things about this game except for the fact that it seems biased against Conservatives. Now I am a conservative capitalist myself and I am debating on whether to get this game. However the one thing that holds me back from it is does this make conservative capitalists the bad guys in the game? If there is a small bias, then I think I could overlook it considering its difficult to make a game that is fair to both parties but if there is heavy bias, well then, why the hell would I pay for something that just basically says "Liberals/Democrats and Socialists=Good guys, Conservatives, and Capitalists=Bad guys" If I wanted a lecture about how evil my political views are, Id attend a class where one of my liberal professors rants against the evils of capitalism. At least there I could debate with him and argue that his views are full of bias bull s--hi-t.

So what do you guys think? Small bias? Heavy bias? Some reviewers have had mixed reactions toward it, some say it is heavily biased, others say its a minor bias. I don't know who to believe on it which is why I am coming to you all. Thanks for any feedback you can give me!

Sincerely,

Evil Conservative Capitalist ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥


(PS I kill puppies)

(PS PS, the last two lines were sarcrastic for those who aren't good at deciphering sarcasm :P)
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Isdar May 22 @ 6:02am 
The only thing I have noticed is that running a welfare state(Like say, Norway) grants you a lot more votes than having one where private persons pay for everything. Assuming you can pay for it anyway, there is no way in hell that you are going to win an election heavy in dept.

I guess this makes sense tough, there are generally more lower class people(Who benefit the most from a welfare state) than there are upper class people(who benefit the most from private paying).
Last edited by Isdar; May 22 @ 6:56am
SeamusMcAlpin May 26 @ 3:06am 
The game is based on the idea of the "political compass" with two independent axes: Socialism vs. Capitalism and Liberalism vs. Conservatism. If you strongly resent this very idea, read no further.

I think the most important thing is: don't go into the game with strong opinions about what a certain label means and then get angry when they don't like your policies. Just look at the effects of policies and then go "ah, apparently 'liberal' in this game means 'free guns, free weed, free immigration, no police'".

I don't think the game is "biased" towards or against any ideology. In the end, I think you can make any policy work and the game doesn't judge you for banning homosexuality (though the citizens who identify with "liberal" ideology will). It's just that some people who strongly identify with certain labels might feel misrepresented.

Some points of note:
-Legalizing all guns will make you popular with Liberals (even though a lot of pro-regulation people in the US call themselves "liberal"), and even more popular with Patriots (not very surprising). Parents will dislike it. However, it will increase violent crime, although real-world evidence about such a connection is controversial, to say the least, and many people feel that exactly the opposite is true. This might either reflect a political bias of the developer, or it might have been done for balance reasons.

-Legalizing cannabis will increase (non-violent) crime, but decrease organized crime (which, in the long term, should lower crime rates). And of course it will be popular with Liberals.

-Alcohol is treated as a lower-class drug (alcohol tax upsets only the Poor while tobacco tax upsets everyone; poverty and unemployment will increase alcohol abuse) and strongly connected with violent crime. I'm pretty sure this reflects the fact that the developer is British.
ainolin May 26 @ 5:33am 
I think that the game (fairly) accurately depicts that it takes time to change the minds/beliefs of many people and that angry people vote more than those who are happy. You can't just say this is the way things are going to be likely it or not in a society in which the governement is freely elected. If your population is 50% liberal 50% conservative you can't just implement 100% proconservative, anti-liberal policys and expect to get re-elected. But if you make things a little uncomfortable for the liberals and a little easier for the conservatives, then over the course of a few elections you can move that balance towards the conservative population and start implementing more and more pro-conservative policies.

I also think (and I am not saying this the your problem) that many people don't really understand what the terms liberal conservative mean, atleast in the US. Its not a right/left thing necessarily, the words themselves mean pro change and pro status quo. When the US was founded George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and nearly all those other founders where Liberals simply because they were changing the status quo doing something that hadn't been tried in more that 1000 years.
SeamusMcAlpin May 26 @ 6:03am 
Originally posted by ainolin:
the words themselves mean pro change and pro status quo.
Conservative means "pro status quo", that's true, but "pro change" wouldn't be Liberal, that'd be Progressive. Liberal means "pro freedom". However, historically most self-proclaimed "progressive" factions' idea of progress was either liberal or socialist.

In the game, "liberal" means something along the lines of pro human rights, civil rights, consumers' rights etc., while "conservatives" don't care much for such sensibilities, and hold up traditional values and the strength of healthy families.
Last edited by SeamusMcAlpin; May 26 @ 6:04am
Señor Aniquilación May 26 @ 2:34pm 
To the original poster... If you were to know me, most consider me to be American conservative. I fancy myself a bit more libertarian these days, but definitely not a socialist or progressive. So with that mindset...

I too was iffy about purchasing the game because of the discussion of bias. I can handle message things, but a political game full of that nonsense wouldn't be worth the money to me. However, this was intriguing enough to me, and I've read some stuff about this game on forums for other games. So, when it came on sale recently, I got it.

I've now played the game for several hours. The first few tries, I went a bit hard core TEA Party cutting taxes and reducing social programs. I made it about 5 quarters and was assassinated. After about 4 games, I read a bit more in the forum, turned off assassination in options, and then tried again with Germany. I also tried paying more attention to the voters, and while I wanted to cut the deficit and lower the debt; I also knew I had to stay in office. So I started with getting rid of social programs that the voters didn't want anyway. I raised sales (ad valorem) taxes, so that I had some revenue, and after a few quarters, I did what I now learned to be a prudent move: shake up the cabinet early.

I've now been elected in that game so many times that FDR has nothing on me. I have $100B reserve and a $20B surplus. I've eliminated property taxes, all business taxes, and only have sales tax (<15%) and income tax (<36%). I've slowly brought back private healthcare to the point that state healthcare is almost entirely cut (it only covers major surgeries). I've brought back private education. I have a strong defense, not because I want one, but otherwise my technology is so high I'll get attacked. I've eliminated agricultural subsidies except for organic that I kept to lower obesity. I could drop that subsidy, but (and here's the point of the game) it's not a lot of money and the voters want it. Do I agree with the voters? Not really, but I need their votes. On the political compass within the game, I'm nearly dead center of the capitalist liberal (which is classical liberal) sector, which is essentially US TEA Party territory.

Would this work for any country in the game with any setting? I doubt it. Might there still be more bias for a conservative socialist regime? Perhaps, but you don't have to indulge in it.

I read a line in the forums that really clicked for me. One person was whining that he didn't like the game because "the bias is forcing me to do what the voters wanted and I don't agree". Some intelligent person responded, "Welcome to Democracy". That responder has the measure of the game. And if you don't think that Obama, Merkel, Bush, or whoever doesn't occassionally have to bend to the voters' will even if they don't agree, then you probably don't understand Democracy anyway and really want a more totalitarian government. You can actually try that in Democracy 3, but if you don't turn off assissanation, you'll be killed. Personally, I now get 99% of the votes (1% don't vote as I've eliminated the other party), and I did it by giving the people what they want. I built there trust, and then I made the government do what I wanted to do with the political capital I earned.

Buy the game, if not now when the sale is over, then wait for the July 4th/Summer Sale and get it then. If you're interested to read this far, you'll be interested in the game.
Naia May 28 @ 7:13pm 
The game is fun, you should buy it.
toad_004 May 28 @ 7:22pm 
You can easily be a conservative capitalist and win - no side in game is intended as "the bad guys". You can clearly pick a side and go against the other side's policies, but that's your choice, not the games.

If you want to play full capitalist, make sure you replace the progressive tax with a flat tax, and implement most of the pro-business policies. Ignore trade unionists, they can't actually do anything, socialists and environmentalists are the ones gunning for you. Many of the pro-business policies reduce socialism - once their population is low enough, you don't have to worry about them (but you're stuck with the environmentalists). Make sure to avoid letting equality drop too low though, or your citizens will rebel.

In fact, the hardest achievement is being completely neutral.

(Actually, the group that assassinates me the most is liberals XD)
Last edited by toad_004; May 28 @ 7:31pm
Xentropy May 29 @ 11:11am 
I can't survive more than about 4 quarters in charge of the US trying to follow free market principles. I don't want to turn off assassinations because that feels like "cheat mode" even if it is just listed as an option and not a cheat. I'm really not sure how to not get assassinated by socialists or liberals. I'm sorry I bought the game at this point and probably won't spend much more time on it.
Naia May 30 @ 1:41am 
Originally posted by Xentropy:
I can't survive more than about 4 quarters in charge of the US trying to follow free market principles. I don't want to turn off assassinations because that feels like "cheat mode" even if it is just listed as an option and not a cheat. I'm really not sure how to not get assassinated by socialists or liberals. I'm sorry I bought the game at this point and probably won't spend much more time on it.

You are changing policies too quickly if you are being killed that fast. I had a similar problem when I first started to play that I would max out some policies that I really wanted to change and didn't want to spend the Political Capital on again only to be shot soon their after by one faction or another.

Try to scroll through the policies to find the ones that is close to your political goal that the majority of the population likes, also look through the list of polices that are already in place that the population doesn't support and is against your political goal and remove them.

It's a fine balance when you first start playing and even harder when you boost the game to the hardest level.
OddLlama May 30 @ 4:23pm 
Originally posted by Xentropy:
I can't survive more than about 4 quarters in charge of the US trying to follow free market principles. I don't want to turn off assassinations because that feels like "cheat mode" even if it is just listed as an option and not a cheat. I'm really not sure how to not get assassinated by socialists or liberals. I'm sorry I bought the game at this point and probably won't spend much more time on it.


I always get assassinated by conservatives/religious. What's your point?
Discalceate May 31 @ 12:30pm 
The only people who see bias are those who think that their own personal ideology has no flaws.
OddLlama May 31 @ 12:33pm 
Originally posted by Discalceate:
The only people who see bias are those who think that their own personal ideology has no flaws.

This.
TurtleShroom Jun 3 @ 3:57pm 
The only overt bias I see is that laxing gun laws somehow increases violent crime, when places like the UK (which has crazy strict gun laws) and the City of Chicago have higher non-gun violent crime rates and, consequentially, more violent crime overall. (The USA has more gun crime, but not more violent crime overall.)

That's my only beef with the game. The rest of it is textbook accurate. You will always win if you become a welfare state that gives its citizens everything and disincentivizes work, because you ahve bought their votes.

Only a true master can run a truly free market, capitalistic state. It takes gradual implementation. You keep getting shot because you're rushing in too fast.
Señor Aniquilación Jun 3 @ 6:36pm 
I am finding the "More Cars" = "Asthma" link annoying. Seriously, I get CO2 in check, have hybrid cars, State Rail, State Monorail, and yet Asthma can only be improved by impacting GDP to lower motorists?
OddLlama Jun 4 @ 5:22pm 
Originally posted by Señor Aniquilación:
I am finding the "More Cars" = "Asthma" link annoying. Seriously, I get CO2 in check, have hybrid cars, State Rail, State Monorail, and yet Asthma can only be improved by impacting GDP to lower motorists?

I'm wondering why asthma is an epidemic and sways so many major points in the game. It seems like the were looking for some way of adding balance somewhere, and somehow came up with asthma.
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