Verdun > General Discussions > Topic Details
W0LF94N9 Jun 24 @ 5:31am
MG Class Tweak
Quite frequently the person playing as the MG Class seems to choose the loadout of "Rifle+pistol" instead of an actual machinegun (even after it seems likely they've already unlocked the MG). This is often enough a defecit to their squad, being deprived of a good base of fire. The reason why most people seem to want to play as MG-class seems to be because they get the rifle AND the pistol. Could the pistol be removed from the rifle+pistol loadout? If it were removed, it might help keep people (esp. noobs) from squandering the MG class.
Last edited by W0LF94N9; Jun 24 @ 5:31am
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Sage Of Salt Jun 24 @ 2:34pm 
Originally posted by W0LF94N9:
Quite frequently the person playing as the MG Class seems to choose the loadout of "Rifle+pistol" instead of an actual machinegun (even after it seems likely they've already unlocked the MG). This is often enough a defecit to their squad, being deprived of a good base of fire. The reason why most people seem to want to play as MG-class seems to be because they get the rifle AND the pistol. Could the pistol be removed from the rifle+pistol loadout? If it were removed, it might help keep people (esp. noobs) from squandering the MG class.
It is probably historically accurate and I find it to be rare when the underpowered MG is more helpfull to the team then rifle+pistol.
I find that I can clear a whole trench with that.
W0LF94N9 Jun 24 @ 9:30pm 
...then you're not using the MG very well. This is the problem I'm talkin' bout: most people seem convinced that the MG isn't as valuable as the rifle+pistol combo. Side note, a decent MG'er WITH a machinegun can rack up some impressive kills (they just need to learn how to use the MG well enough, which the rifle+pistol combo seems to somehow discourage). The MG is more valuable to the team, the rifle+pistol combo is more valuable to the player who doesn't want to have to work with his squad (and in terms of historical accuracy, it was MACHINE GUNS that defined WWI trench warfare the most as far as firearms. Why would the devs want to discourage their use by making rifle+pistol more attractive?). YOU might be able to clear a whole trench, but that doesn't help your teammates have fun. And people don't care about if YOU cleared the trench for them: they care about having good teammates, and being part of a group effort, otherwise they'd just play a SP game that catered to making them "feel" like a bad455. The MG class is about supporting your teammates, not run-and-gunning. If the MG class loadout of pistol+rifle was removed, it would foster teamplay, instead of enabling people to say "to h3LL with my squadmates, I can just do it all on my own", and fostering teamplay as opposed to working against it will result in more fun for more people.

In the end, even a rifleman can clear a trench all by himself if he's got the chops. Heck, I've done it myself with just a pistol on occasion. What we need are more squadmates, not celebrities. Verdun's biggest selling point (outside of WWI setting) is supposedly squadplay. Rifle+pistol combo works against that to too great a degree.

Forgive me, I'm not harping on you, or your playstyle, I just think it's a bit of a redundancy, and furthermore works against the better things Verdun has to offer. I dunno. I hope I'm not the only one, might just be me. Not trying to be a killjoy or anything. hehe

oh, and if the alternate MG loadout is JUST a rifle, it increases the chance that MG player (using the rifle loadout) might switch with one of his squadmates who'd better serve the team by using the MG. Just sayin'
Last edited by W0LF94N9; Jun 24 @ 9:50pm
Bishop Jun 25 @ 4:02am 
no. if players want to use it they can. that's why it was added. MG isn't better or more valuable. it's like everything situational. MGs are only good if a player knows how to use them, very few do. Secondly it's not good if the team lets enemies in as they lack in self defence, and during attacks their terrible. slow to move, have no ability to defend or support the attack...rifle and pistol is much better for most situations over an MG.
Sage Of Salt Jun 25 @ 4:04am 
Implying most people "suck" with MG?
If the majority agrees it is underpowered, It has nothing to do with skill.
Bishop Jun 25 @ 4:14am 
just vs good players you're going to stuggle. without support you're going to stuggle. rather have a guy with rifle+pistol helping to defend then someone giving the enemy an easy kill.

Yeah it would be underpowered,it hasn't been fully implemented. there's no supression which is what MGs are famous for.

NCO used to be hated as it just had pistol and a grenade, then they added artillery and it was great.
W0LF94N9 Jun 25 @ 8:11am 
I understand gentlemen, but I'm not asking for rifle+pistol loadout to be removed entirely, leaving only machinegun loadouts. I'm asking that only the PISTOL be removed from the rifle+pistol loadout, to discourage people from hogging up the class even if someone else on their squad might be more willing to provide cover with the MG. So your loadouts would be "Rifle loadout" , "MG loadout 1", and "MG Loadout 2". A player wouldn't be forced into using an MG while playing as the MG class, but dropping the pistol from the loadout (making it identical to the rifleman) I figure would help fight MG-class "squatting", which happens waaaaaay too much. Faaaar too often I find myself playing on a team of all Heavy Squads, and...there's not a single MachineGun to be found in the field. And we lose because of it. And the dudes playing as MG classes all seem to still have terrible KDR (so I know it's not helping that much) regardless of the fact they're playing with a rifle AND a pistol. So I chaulk it up to some weird kind of n00b self-confidence blindness thing most of the time (not accusing anyone in particular, mind you, I'm just describing a generality), which goes something like this: "aha! I get a rifle AND a pistol! I already know how to use both, therefore I am best equipped of all the classes. Other people must be jealous of my sweet arsenal, so I'll lock my role. I'm gonna go John McClane on everyone!". Then they blow off their teammates, and typically die long before they come within a range to even USE the pistol they're carrying. It's pointless most of the time, all because of how a pistol makes them feel. Look at a typical game where the MG class player is using a rifle+pistol loadout, and most of the times, his KDR is low. Can't be THAT effective at "killing more enemies, so I'm really actually helping my team" if his KDR is low. What's the real reason he's locked his role as MGer? ...'cuz the pistol (as part of the current rifle+pistol loadout) is more of a "lucky charm" for n00bs than it is a useful addition. I am not calling anyone here in particular a n00b, I'm just noting a trend in-game, please don't think I'm insulting anyone.

...and then the lack of MG support starts screwing their team over, and the MG-class player gets asked to switch to the MG so he can cover people or switch classes with someone who CAN, and he typically refuses/stops responding/locks his role, and people start dropping out, all because of a dinky pistol that doesn't even help most people with getting a higher KDR. It needs tweaking

also, considering most MG Players don't even use the MG, yeah, it would be reasonable to say they "suck" if they don't use it enough to get good enough with it. It's a beast if you only actually try to figure it out!

edit: in addition to being great for defense, the MG is incredibly useful for attack! Getting IN the trench you're attacking is the hardest part, and an MG that provides cover fire for his teammates to enter a trench (by firing at the posiion they'll be breaching the trench AT) really helps his team by making trench sweeps as performed by his teammates more likely/frequent.
Last edited by W0LF94N9; Jun 25 @ 11:06am
Pookie The Krogan Jun 25 @ 10:18am 
i do agree. i have seeing people that have the MG unlocked just use the rife. the MG IS best used for defense. find a good spot deploy and make sure your team has your sides. iv held off a whole side alone doing that. 27 kills. my teamates helped a lot with me left flank
Sage Of Salt Jun 25 @ 1:52pm 
Originally posted by W0LF94N9:
I understand gentlemen, but I'm not asking for rifle+pistol loadout to be removed entirely, leaving only machinegun loadouts. I'm asking that only the PISTOL be removed from the rifle+pistol loadout, to discourage people from hogging up the class even if someone else on their squad might be more willing to provide cover with the MG. So your loadouts would be "Rifle loadout" , "MG loadout 1", and "MG Loadout 2". A player wouldn't be forced into using an MG while playing as the MG class, but dropping the pistol from the loadout (making it identical to the rifleman) I figure would help fight MG-class "squatting", which happens waaaaaay too much. Faaaar too often I find myself playing on a team of all Heavy Squads, and...there's not a single MachineGun to be found in the field. And we lose because of it. And the dudes playing as MG classes all seem to still have terrible KDR (so I know it's not helping that much) regardless of the fact they're playing with a rifle AND a pistol. So I chaulk it up to some weird kind of n00b self-confidence blindness thing most of the time (not accusing anyone in particular, mind you, I'm just describing a generality), which goes something like this: "aha! I get a rifle AND a pistol! I already know how to use both, therefore I am best equipped of all the classes. Other people must be jealous of my sweet arsenal, so I'll lock my role. I'm gonna go John McClane on everyone!". Then they blow off their teammates, and typically die long before they come within a range to even USE the pistol they're carrying. It's pointless most of the time, all because of how a pistol makes them feel. Look at a typical game where the MG class player is using a rifle+pistol loadout, and most of the times, his KDR is low. Can't be THAT effective at "killing more enemies, so I'm really actually helping my team" if his KDR is low. What's the real reason he's locked his role as MGer? ...'cuz the pistol (as part of the current rifle+pistol loadout) is more of a "lucky charm" for n00bs than it is a useful addition. I am not calling anyone here in particular a n00b, I'm just noting a trend in-game, please don't think I'm insulting anyone.

...and then the lack of MG support starts screwing their team over, and the MG-class player gets asked to switch to the MG so he can cover people or switch classes with someone who CAN, and he typically refuses/stops responding/locks his role, and people start dropping out, all because of a dinky pistol that doesn't even help most people with getting a higher KDR. It needs tweaking

also, considering most MG Players don't even use the MG, yeah, it would be reasonable to say they "suck" if they don't use it enough to get good enough with it. It's a beast if you only actually try to figure it out!

edit: in addition to being great for defense, the MG is incredibly useful for attack! Getting IN the trench you're attacking is the hardest part, and an MG that provides cover fire for his teammates to enter a trench (by firing at the posiion they'll be breaching the trench AT) really helps his team by making trench sweeps as performed by his teammates more likely/frequent.
I dought that I can read that wall of text without falling to sleep.
Nobody asked for a graduate thesis.
BlackMill | Leo  [developer] Jun 25 @ 1:56pm 
I'm agreeing with your statement. However I think it is not so much the pistols fault as it is the MG's being underpowered. We will deal with this in the coming time as we are going to rebalance the weapons, nerving rapid rifle target aquisitions to a more tactical level, buffed general MG stopping power to make them more dominant on the battlefield. If that is not enough then we will remove the pistol.
W0LF94N9 Jun 25 @ 3:09pm 
Sounds exciting Leo! Can't wait to see the changes, rumor has it there will be suppression effects added as well...sounds kick455!


Originally posted by Sage Of Salt:
I dought that I can read that wall of text without falling to sleep.
Nobody asked for a graduate thesis.

If you want to write a longer post, I'd read every word written. If you don't feel like writing or reading a certain amount, that's your preogative and I respect that, but you don't need to be belittling. I just want to help Verdun on it's path to being a killer game in any small way I can, even if that means showing my deficits as a poor, longwinded, and boring writer.

Kudos to all!
Last edited by W0LF94N9; Jun 25 @ 3:10pm
Bishop Jun 25 @ 3:56pm 
if they get a low K/D ratio with the rifle/pistol they aren';t gonna do well with the MG. You also have the problem of many being new players who may not have even unlocked the MG. if their kills are that low it can take a while.

lack of MG wont handicap a team. if you can't hold without one you're not gonna hold if that player used the MG. Else how would the recon squads survive? they have only rifles, next to no grenades and their call in does no damage and is short lived.

MGs are effective in the right hands, E.g. [LR] Fritz and Budda. but a lot of people wont do much but give the enemy. Problem I have with mgs is the animation, you think just the tip of your head is showing but they can see you from the chest up making you an easy target. along with trouble some mantling and no tutorial a lot of new and lower leveled players will stuggle to use the mg effectively. seen many low levels think the chauchat is a CoD gun and think they can run around hip firing everything to death and i just walk up n stab when their reloading.
W0LF94N9 Jun 25 @ 5:56pm 
well, I guess I'm not really pointing a finger at the new players who haven't unlocked the MG yet. Even then, many of them seem to lock their role when asked to switch (if it gets to that point), and I'd just wonder as to why.

Lack of MG does seem to handicap the team. Light squads do fine 1-on-1 versus a heavy squad, but take any match with more than one squad per team and pit a team made up of only light squads versus a mixed bag, and 9 times outta 10 the mixed bag will win. And it's 'cuz of the presence of the heavy squad. Either way, things will get tweaked, and it'll be sweet to see how the new Pioneer squads play into everything too!

I think that's a totally legit point about how much the MG animation exposes the gunner. It does need tweaking. And a tutorial would really help matters as well. Maybe it's just as simple as educating new players, and from that we'd see a better use of all classes, not only MG.

I suppose the only thing I was trying to put out there was the idea that maybe the pistol functioned too strongly as an incentive not to be bothered learning a new weapon, a new playstyle. And like you said, a good MG'er can reeeaaaally clean up. Heck, even if he's just a bullet-spitting target, and gets killed a lot, he performs an important role for his team in giving the enemy something to deal with, taking their attention off his squadmates for long enough for them to get in and wreak some havoc.
Last edited by W0LF94N9; Jun 25 @ 5:59pm
Sage Of Salt Jun 25 @ 5:59pm 
We can't really blame the player for choosing the trench killing machine rather than the situational mower.
Bishop Jun 25 @ 6:06pm 
I fidn the handicap tends to be lack of explosives then the lack of MG.

I tend to lock roles once i choose, I dislike getting spammed requests.

yeah, it's often hard to find a place to set up MGs, most players you see give up, others relise to go to more of a small defence rather then a large field of fire, their too vulnerable. I love the MG08/15 now, really has a great kick but so few places to use it, last time I had a good result was enfilade fire on Picardie,but would of fallen if it hadn't been for 2 other players covering me. during the attack I was useless untill I died and could switch to the rifle.

I guess that again relies on the players.

I also have a question to the Devs on where they want the MG, currently it is a killing machine but their class perks imply that it should be a support weapon, wounding not killing. (bonus points for assist kills) is that going to be changed when supression is added?
W0LF94N9 Jun 25 @ 6:06pm 
In regards Sage's latest post: True, and I'm not trying to argue pointlessly (for the sake of argument or whatever, devil's advocate crap), but isn't trench sweeping/killing something more up the alley of the Light Squad? I'd be totally in support of making a class loadout for one of the Light Squad roles that featured a pistol AND a rifle! Light squads whoop 455 at charging and clearing trenches, it'd be good to have a loadout such as pistol+rifle that encouraged a Light Squad player to charge in, guns blazing. It's just that having a "trench killing assault loadout" as an option for a class that's quintessentially about being an "emplacement" just seems inappropriate, and at odds with the value of that class.

@Bishop: you're right, the mortars are totally behind the strength of heavy squads, I didn't mean to insinuate the MG was the reason behind their success, I just meant to point out that Light Squads aren't necessarily the end-all-be-all. And finding places FOR the MG really is what you learn most about playing as that class. There are some awesome killzones out there, a player needs to assess the lay of the land to find them though. And the mounting problem: jesus is that frustrating. And prone-block as an MG? Fuh-gedda-bout-it! In all fairness, I can understand why it'd be harder to keep at it while learning the MG.
Last edited by W0LF94N9; Jun 25 @ 6:15pm
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Date Posted: Jun 24 @ 5:31am
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