Spelunky > General Discussions > Topic Details
mikel Oct 31, 2013 @ 5:04pm
The Ghost Issue: What's the harm?
There has been a lot of discussion about whether the ghost or a timer is good or bad. It has been said that this is the way that the developer wanted it and that is the way it should be. If you can't run the course in 150 seconds, you shouldn't be on the team or even play. Or should I add, you shouldn't spend your money to buy the game? To that I say, "What's the harm?" So what if I play an easier form of the game where the ghost comes out at 200 seconds and you play the original game. What's the harm? If we are not competing with each other, what's thebig deal? If you want to post your great score on youtube, go ahead. Just make sure the difficulty level is posted also. Write this into the code. I speak to the developer and the marketing team now. What is the harm of making a game, any game, more accessable to those who are less gifted than those who can whirl through a gameboy? Is there any harm in having increased sales because the average or less than average Joe or Jane Blow will now be able to enjoy the game without being blown away in the first 2 minutes? Yes, keep it difficult, but allow those, who need more time in order to learn how to play the game, have fun, learn, develop their skills, even if it is at a lower level. I realize that in some games this may not be possible. However in Spelunky, there must be something, somewhere in the code that stipulates that the ghost arrives at 150 seconds. Add difficulty levels that ♥♥♥♥♥♥ the ghost's entry. To the purists out there, I should caution that time catches up with us all. What you can do in your twenties, you probably can't do as well in your forties. You do plan to live past your fifies, don't you? Will having difficulty levels spoil the game? Maybe for those who want to keep the less gifted out of their club. But for the rest of us, we who have the money and desire to play something that won't humble us in the first two minutes, what's the harm of adding our money to your bottom line? In conclusion, I ask what's the harm? More sales? More people buying games?
M
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{-NAG-}Bombsquad Nov 1, 2013 @ 4:13am 
People already found numerous ways of delaying or even removing the ghost. Here's just one example: http://steamcommunity.com/app/239350/discussions/0/864980278116509686/

Being able to turn the ghost off should be possible, delaying the ghost is simply a no go.
That way, you can either have a nice relaxing run with little to no chance of a top score in the leaderboards, or play like it was ment to be.
Slood Nov 1, 2013 @ 5:45am 
Originally posted by {-NAG-}Bombsquad:
People already found numerous ways of delaying or even removing the ghost. Here's just one example: http://steamcommunity.com/app/239350/discussions/0/864980278116509686/

Being able to turn the ghost off should be possible, delaying the ghost is simply a no go.
That way, you can either have a nice relaxing run with little to no chance of a top score in the leaderboards, or play like it was ment to be.

What's next, removing all monsters? Infinite health? You are breaking game design. (i dont mean you personally, just people who do that)
{-NAG-}Bombsquad Nov 1, 2013 @ 5:54am 
Originally posted by Slood:
What's next, removing all monsters? Infinite health? You are breaking game design. (i dont mean you personally, just people who do that)
The ghost mechanic seems to be the thing that most new players struggle with. (Well that and the climbing gloves) So why not implement something that are basically training wheels. You get a huge benefit, for a huge downside. No rush, but no score attacking. It seems like the easiest way for new players to up their game a bit since they aren't really trying to score attack.

Infinite health wouldn't be to beneficial because of all the 1 hit kills... (I'm joking though, they shouldn't put that in...)
pi73r Nov 1, 2013 @ 7:34am 
really? I bought the game yesterday, encountered ghost 2 times and I alrdy think it is fairly easy to outmanevouer ghost and make use of diamonds. Stop ♥♥♥♥♥ing and l2p.
Otterpoppins Nov 1, 2013 @ 7:38am 
Originally posted by pi73r spelunker:
Stop ♥♥♥♥♥ing and l2p.
ew don't sh­it up the spelunky forums like you do the isaac forums
glyphic Nov 1, 2013 @ 7:45am 
I think giving people the choice to remove the ghost should be possible since a lot of people bring it up. You shouldn't be able to get any high scores/shortcuts/achievements though. Perhaps even cut if off after the jungle or ice caves so people are more incentivised to move to the normal mode.

Personally in games I like to take my time and be methodical yet I don't find the ghost timer terribly harsh. I think I've triggered the ghost maybe 6 times in ~200 deaths and I finally beat the game from the start yesterday (woo!).

However the threat of the ghost is always in the back of my head, so much so that my "internal clock" is always about 30 seconds ahead of the real clock haha. Sometimes I make rash and stupid decisions and die because of it. Though the more you die the more you learn. The more you learn the faster and more confidently you go. Then the ghost becomes a non-issue.
ExtraSpectre Nov 1, 2013 @ 10:06am 
The "harm" is people asking the devs to go against their design philosophy.

The game was designed as a hard as nails rougelike platformer. The ghost is an integral part of that game design, and much of the game is balanced around it's existence. You are not supposed to 100% min-max every floor(and if you do, then you are doing it through skill and ghost-kiting), the ghost is there to place an emphasis on managing your priorities.

Not every game should have an "EZ-mode" just because that's what casuals want. Do hardcore sims often come with an arcade mode? Do realistic shooters come with CoD mode? This game was lovingly crafted with a specific goal and a specific audience in mind, the devs are not obligated to compromise their vision of what the game should be to open it up to a casual demographic.
Last edited by ExtraSpectre; Nov 1, 2013 @ 10:15am
mikel Nov 1, 2013 @ 11:01am 
Still, I ask, "What's harm?" More sales. Pride. I am a consumer. I choose to spend my money on a game that will give me an enjoyable time. Where's the problem, if we are not competing and I never post my scores. Even if I do, they could say played in Weanie mode. Also to Fritz von Fleischgewehr, I say, "Thank you."
Slood Nov 2, 2013 @ 1:29am 
50 hours in spelunky, died from ghost 2-3 times only, i wasnt pro or something like that.
mikel Nov 2, 2013 @ 6:20pm 
Good for you.
ABob71 Nov 2, 2013 @ 7:13pm 
Originally posted by mikel:
Still, I ask, "What's harm?" More sales. Pride. I am a consumer. I choose to spend my money on a game that will give me an enjoyable time. Where's the problem, if we are not competing and I never post my scores. Even if I do, they could say played in Weanie mode. Also to Fritz von Fleischgewehr, I say, "Thank you."

While many of your points are valid, I liken game design to art design. While the end user is often a concern for the artist/creator, ultimately, the design that is chosen at the end of the day is the one we get. While many things wind up being marketable, not everything is (or should) be made with marketability in mind. The ability for individual expression is why indies don't use mass-market publishers, or at least it's one of the reasons. Things get murky when one factors in patches and whatnot, but that boils down to artist integrity- a discussion for another day.
Fée Nov 2, 2013 @ 10:47pm 
Right, so lets use my predicament as an example.
If I try to spend a "normal" amount of time on a stage, I die, it's too fast for me.
If I slow down, have patience etc etc I don't die... in fact, I hardly get hit.
But then the ghost comes, no matter what I try, I can't avoid it, I die.
It's ruining my enjoyment. So I guess I should just... not play, right? Waste my money, right?

Because people like me have trouble with the ghost we should just give up, right?
Slood Nov 2, 2013 @ 10:56pm 
Originally posted by Fée de la Mort:
Right, so lets use my predicament as an example.
If I try to spend a "normal" amount of time on a stage, I die, it's too fast for me.
If I slow down, have patience etc etc I don't die... in fact, I hardly get hit.
But then the ghost comes, no matter what I try, I can't avoid it, I die.
It's ruining my enjoyment. So I guess I should just... not play, right? Waste my money, right?

Because people like me have trouble with the ghost we should just give up, right?

Practice and get better. Do you use cheats in multiplayer games too? because you cant win?
Fée Nov 2, 2013 @ 10:58pm 
Originally posted by Slood:
Originally posted by Fée de la Mort:
Right, so lets use my predicament as an example.
If I try to spend a "normal" amount of time on a stage, I die, it's too fast for me.
If I slow down, have patience etc etc I don't die... in fact, I hardly get hit.
But then the ghost comes, no matter what I try, I can't avoid it, I die.
It's ruining my enjoyment. So I guess I should just... not play, right? Waste my money, right?

Because people like me have trouble with the ghost we should just give up, right?

Practice and get better. Do you use cheats in multiplayer games too? because you cant win?

Oh look, insults already. Didn't think it'd be this quick.
I've played around 30 hours on the Xbox 360 version and only about 2 hours on the PC version.
I have got better, the ghost still kills me.
No, but at least in multiplayer games I can take it slow and cautious. In fact, in pretty much every other game ever I can take it slow and cautious.
Slood Nov 3, 2013 @ 12:38am 
Originally posted by Fée de la Mort:
Originally posted by Slood:

Practice and get better. Do you use cheats in multiplayer games too? because you cant win?

Oh look, insults already. Didn't think it'd be this quick.
I've played around 30 hours on the Xbox 360 version and only about 2 hours on the PC version.
I have got better, the ghost still kills me.
No, but at least in multiplayer games I can take it slow and cautious. In fact, in pretty much every other game ever I can take it slow and cautious.

I didnt mean to insult you. Im just trying to say that the ghost is actually easy to avoid when you practice, he is really slow. And i like to plan my things too in games, but what did you expected from an action platformer?
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Date Posted: Oct 31, 2013 @ 5:04pm
Posts: 40