pea_farm Feb 10 @ 11:33am
Arstotzka is pure capitalist not communist
Seeing that in this game you have to be worked to death to provide the basic necessities for life (shelter, heat, food, medicine) and if you don't work hard enough you and your family die, I wonder if the guy who made it even knows what communism is. This is the exact opposite of communism, in fact this is the reason communism was born, so that these necessities are provided to everyone for free and nobody needed to worry about making enough money or being stressed about doing their job anymore. Arstotzka is the perfect image of capitalism not communism.
Last edited by pea_farm; Feb 10 @ 11:39am
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wlayton27 Feb 10 @ 12:23pm 
I agree that the basic financial dynamics of the game don't agree with communism or even collectivism, but adding a 75% + tax rate and government benefits like food stamps would take away the entire feeling of working for poverty-level pay. Because the game is focused on the tedium of the stressful work life, it can't really function as a communist economy simulator. Let's just say that Arstotzka is "socialist" instead of "communist." Good eye.
Amber Feb 10 @ 2:44pm 
don't blame the dev, blame on history. a lot of people claimed to be communist (or at least Marxist) and it didn't work out for reasons that have been argued for the death. I think the dev is obviously aiming to represent the era of that time no matter what the 'winners' say.
dysydent Feb 11 @ 6:28am 
There are two economical systems - capitalistic based on free enterprise and socialist based on collective organization (in this case a state). Arstotzka is pure socialist. Nazism (national socialism), fascism, communism, etatism, interventionism, keynesism - it's all basically going towards state based system.

Also, as socialism does not have natural system of price change, it can never work and can never be even a little bit as effective as free market. As it can't work, especially in its communist form, everybody is working to death and do not get not much for that. I am from a post-communist country so I well know.
Last edited by dysydent; Feb 11 @ 6:31am
ThatSolitaryGuy Feb 11 @ 11:37pm 
Contrary to popular belief, Communism and Socialism are not authoritarian/state-based by default. Socialism has an anarchistic form, which is referred to, in its most basic form, as Libertarian Socialism. Most people equate Libertarianism to anarcho-capitalism, but its original meaning was that of a society that functions without a centralized government body, favoring neither Capitalism or Communism/Socialism by default.

Most people see Socialism as being exclusively state-based, given how it has been carried out by leaders such as Stalin, Mao Zedong and Fidel Castro, and this image has since obscured its non-state-based variant. This makes Capitalism seem more democratic by comparisson, when in fact, most modern Capitalist societies like the U.S. and the U.K. tend to withhold a centralized government (congress/parliament), which technically makes them state-based societies.

I'm not responding to one person in particular, but this should clear things up a bit.
Last edited by ThatSolitaryGuy; Feb 11 @ 11:42pm
mr_dude_guy Feb 12 @ 1:31am 
this is set up after the break up of the soviet union. When those contries first started implementing capatalism...badly.
Hadjimurad Feb 12 @ 1:56am 
Originally posted by pea_farm:
Seeing that in this game you have to be worked to death to provide the basic necessities for life (shelter, heat, food, medicine) and if you don't work hard enough you and your family die, I wonder if the guy who made it even knows what communism is. This is the exact opposite of communism, in fact this is the reason communism was born, so that these necessities are provided to everyone for free and nobody needed to worry about making enough money or being stressed about doing their job anymore. Arstotzka is the perfect image of capitalism not communism.

as was mentioned above, it's made pretty clear in the game that arstotzka's opening its borders is analogous to the fall of fall of the soviet union, or other moments in history when eastern european countries underwent political change. the game is obviously not about communisim, but about bureacracy and corruption.
denzil85 Feb 12 @ 2:14am 
I enjoy a bit of government corruption in the morning!
skprog [AJSA] Feb 12 @ 11:15am 
agree + 1
Hiiri Feb 12 @ 1:38pm 
Is there any part where anything in relation to economics is mentioned?

I mean, communism and capitalism are economic ideas and both can be applied in a totalitarian state, which the game is obviously based upon. We don't really know whether businesses (or.. "means of production") inside Arstotzka are privately owned or not, but we can be pretty sure that they're under constant surveillance by the state.

Just because there's historical context for "communism = totalitarianism" doesn't mean it has to be so. So I don't think we can make assumptions on the economic model Arstotzka uses. :p
Khârn Feb 12 @ 1:47pm 
The game obviously is about some poor Grenztruppe living in the DDR in the late '80s.
nolmic Feb 12 @ 3:57pm 
its not trying to be a history lesson just a really fun game. so what if some info is wrong? welcome to the internet.
dr.curiosity Feb 12 @ 4:33pm 
Really? You don't say.

Next thing you'll be telling us that companies like Weyland-Yutani from Alien/Prometheus and the RDA from Avatar aren't good exemplars of healthy free market capitalism :-)
OfficiallyTurtleSquared Feb 16 @ 11:39am 
Originally posted by pea_farm:
Seeing that in this game you have to be worked to death to provide the basic necessities for life (shelter, heat, food, medicine) and if you don't work hard enough you and your family die, I wonder if the guy who made it even knows what communism is. This is the exact opposite of communism, in fact this is the reason communism was born, so that these necessities are provided to everyone for free and nobody needed to worry about making enough money or being stressed about doing their job anymore. Arstotzka is the perfect image of capitalism not communism.
Right, but look at it this way. Ok, You come out with this huge idea, it makes billions on the markets, but instead of getting those billion dollars, you only get a little of the money, but the other people get a slice of something that they didnt do squat for. This "Capitalist-Communist" problem has been argued over for 5-6 decades, JUST SHUT UP!!!! IT'S NO BIG DEAL! The only reason im posting this is because i hate to see that nobody else did. Its a fun game. IF YOU CAN'T SEE PAST YOUR OWN STUPIDITY, YOU SHOULDN'T PLAY POLITICAL GAMES!
Last edited by OfficiallyTurtleSquared; Feb 16 @ 4:27pm
chriskringel Feb 16 @ 4:02pm 
Does anyone know a communist country, where quality of living and life was better than in Arstotzka? I can't remember... (PS: Yes, this thread is silly and awful (it's a game!) but more awful is this whole "communism isn't so bad if implemented correctly by the "right" people" which is the same though behind every "good" dicatorship basically. I pretty much hate all political spectrums. Crony Capitalism Republicans and Socialist Democrats. And also "we only need the market" Libertarians. I think in a "good" society nobody should fear starving or having no housing or dying from illnesses etc. I would like to have a state with some "European" ideas, like health care. But very basic and therefore very strong, helpful and effective for the individual in need – and with less bureaucracy. Even if you consider unemployment help, if you simplify it, the state will spend *less* money, because the state wouldn't have to pay all those bureaucrats (who are basically missing as workers, entrepreneurs, movie directors, -whatever- from the free market. The state is NOT a market.) However we nowadays live like kings in earlier days could only dream of. Water, housing, health, we are getting older and older, communication, mobility etc. All basically done by "greedy corporatists" and not by the state. I guess it's true that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Minimum wage forced? Nice idea. More taxes for the state, and more consumerism. No it's not! Look at the unemployment numbers of black youth in New York. They only had disadvantages in tendency because of minimum wage. Read Thomas Sowell on this. And read Hayek.
Hayek's thoughts are basically in the philosophy of this game: There are no solutions, only (tragic) trade-offs. And that is the tragic of life itself.
My favorite economist is perhaps Wilhelm Röpke and what Ludwig Erhard achieved with his school of thought in the late 1950s in Germany. Pretty much Hayek-based. That was pretty well in the middle, and Erhard said that he never would be into the corporation's interests. But also not the union's interests. Nobody's interests.
In summary: Trying to achieve a society that would be just, only leads to bad things. Accepting that society is not "good" and unjust, is one of the first lessons of adolescence. Politics nowadays are basically about "divide and conquer" (divide et impera), pitting people against each other to make them relate to "opposing" partys of the political spectrum. It is an illusion. Nothing much have changed on power structure in the history of the world. The question is beyond all this: Is there meaning in your life and beyond your life? Or is it all just over someday? And secondly, that happiness is a serious problem.)

Nota bene: Sorry, I'm no native English speaker and it's very late around here.
chriskringel Feb 16 @ 4:15pm 
PPS: Consumerism in itself is not good (as Keynisians and other Crony Capitalists) believe) and also not bad (as the "Left" believes). It's just nothing. It doesn't take meaning away from your life but also it does not give you any meaning. The only question about consumerism is, that you need it to some degree, and again it's not a bad thing in itself, but you should only pay as much as you really could afford. Debt is a huge problem. The whole system is build around debt. Debt is everywhere. (PS: If you like a story about debt, check out "Kentucky Route Zero")

I highly recommend those videos from Econ Stories"Fear the Boom and Bust" a Hayek vs. Keynes Rap Anthemon Youtube, they show the problem with our current (Keynesian) system, while not preaching a certain political party agenda:
good place to start: "Deck the halls with macro follies" www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uKnd6IEiO0
""Fear the Boom and Bust" a Hayek vs. Keynes Rap Anthem" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk
"Fight of the Century: Keynes vs. Hayek Round Two" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc

others: "Value is Subjective (Macklemore & Ryan Lewis ... Remix)" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwNLRNpVbN8
"The value of goods is subjective" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnTiOFpUVj4&list=PLjiT5tt-WVpqPX1roEXtp8kttcHYVEv4g&index=11


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Date Posted: Feb 10 @ 11:33am
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