Papers, Please
Laika Jul 31 @ 3:38pm
"Invalid Gender"
I have played the game for several hours so far and I like that it gives you (moral) choices. You can strictly follow protocol but you also have the opportunity to not go by the rules all the time. But one thing really bugs me: the "invalid gender" thing.

Yeah, some people do not "look like" the gender that's on their passport. Why? Because it's damn difficult for transgender people to get the gender on their passport changed. And I know what I'm talking about, I've done it myself. It took years. Many trans people are in that awkward position where they live as their true gender and express themselves the way they feel right. But because it's so difficult to legally change your gender they still have the gender on their passport that was assigned to them at birth. People should not be punished for bad bureaucracy and laws that do not favor trans people (to be very polite here).

I like the position the game puts the player into: making choices either based on loyalty to the law or based on your own moral code. But this thing really f*cked me up and that's why I won't recommend this game to friends and family.
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Amber Jul 31 @ 4:57pm 
only 2 posts like this (in last 5months i've been watching these forums) about transgender concerns. I think the reason it hasn't been a bigger concern than ppl expect is that is that the game was never made to politically safe and certainly clear the dev never had intention to insult or upset transgender people. It isn't an aspect of the game that relates to the concept and it would just ruin the game imo

I mean it would be just wonderful if we could have mods and add this stuff oruselves but really, imagine this game if npcs in story mode really had these conversations. It would really detract from the concept of "wow I have to detain ppl to make money, decide on bribes, may not have my family survive thew inter" aspects that makes this game great at very little improvement to the game.

unless your family/friends are equially upset by this concept then I'd say you're letting your own bias letting them miss on a good game
Last edited by Amber; Jul 31 @ 4:58pm
Ryuu Jul 31 @ 7:51pm 
Blame Artotzkan government, not the game.
Laika Aug 1 @ 5:08am 
Originally posted by Amber:
only 2 posts like this (in last 5months i've been watching these forums) about transgender concerns. I think the reason it hasn't been a bigger concern than ppl expect is that is that the game was never made to politically safe and certainly clear the dev never had intention to insult or upset transgender people. It isn't an aspect of the game that relates to the concept and it would just ruin the game imo

I mean it would be just wonderful if we could have mods and add this stuff oruselves but really, imagine this game if npcs in story mode really had these conversations. It would really detract from the concept of "wow I have to detain ppl to make money, decide on bribes, may not have my family survive thew inter" aspects that makes this game great at very little improvement to the game.

unless your family/friends are equially upset by this concept then I'd say you're letting your own bias letting them miss on a good game
You obviously have no idea what it feels like to deny a person in the game whose gender is "invalid" because you never had to deal with this problem in real life. I had to...

Although that feels really sh*tty I don't think it's a bad game. I just think the "invalid gender" aspect shouldn't be in the game because it's hurtful. Besides, it has no real purpose. People with an "invalid gender" won't bribe you for letting them pass the checkpoint.

There are so many other aspects people can get denied for (for example non-matching names, passport expired, etc.) so i don't understand why this particular aspect has to be in the game when it clearly hurts trans people. When you fake a passport to get into Arstotzka and don't do it right and get denied that's unfortunate. But not being able to legally change your gender (yet) and being denied for that is just hurtful for players like me because we actually experience this kind of stuff today in real life.
Last edited by Laika; Aug 1 @ 5:14am
It may be a real problem during border control so the creators lut it into the game. Changing your gender doesn't allow You to criticise all negative mentions about it and to demand silence. It's a worse cenzorship than that depicted in Arstotska.
Just do not get it all to yourself, be strong and happy. There is no cause to feel hurt. Cheers :)
Laika Aug 1 @ 10:06pm 
Originally posted by Kalembik:
It may be a real problem during border control so the creators lut it into the game. Changing your gender doesn't allow You to criticise all negative mentions about it and to demand silence. It's a worse cenzorship than that depicted in Arstotska.
Just do not get it all to yourself, be strong and happy. There is no cause to feel hurt. Cheers :)
LOL (._.)
The irony is op is upset that the game is representing something that happened to them in rl. Its not every day that a game addresses transgender issues in a very serious way. Infact many representations in this game are still very real indeed. So when you have to follow the rules it does end up sounding cold, and emotionless so "invalid gender" sounds exactly like someone who dosen't, or can't care, aka the bureacracy of Arstotska.
Laika Aug 3 @ 4:51am 
Originally posted by JezuzLizard:
The irony is op is upset that the game is representing something that happened to them in rl. Its not every day that a game addresses transgender issues in a very serious way. Infact many representations in this game are still very real indeed. So when you have to follow the rules it does end up sounding cold, and emotionless so "invalid gender" sounds exactly like someone who dosen't, or can't care, aka the bureacracy of Arstotska.
Yeah, but I don't think the dev intended people with "invalid gender" to be trans. So it's not really representation.
It was probably intended as another example of parts of a document being wrong by mistake, forgery, or merely seeming wrong at first glanced.
You are correct for the wrong reason, sometimes it's just hard to tell. Don't make non-issues a problem.
farridd Aug 4 @ 12:41am 
Let me remind you, that this game is set to COMMUNIST country in early 1980's. It's normal for us, people of today to respect (or at least NOT PUNISH) transgender people. But in 1980's in country like Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, life was very hard for You as trasgender or LGBT person. Idea of the game was not to "bully" transgender poeople. Idea was to show, how goverments (and also most of ordinary people) was intollerant and rude. That's all.
Yeah ive had friends who have been detained because the gender on their papers and appearance don't match, I thought this was a good way of showing people how cold hearted it was, and also reminding people that the world hasn't moved on much when it comes to ID and how difficult travelling while trans is. Sometimes I prefer subtle jabs at beaurocracy, as this game is, it gets the message across to people in a better way than the whole sledgehammer approach or avoiding pertinent facts!
the game is set in an opressive conservative state in a time period where even the most liberal areas of the world were at the very beginning of accepting transgender folk properly

not to mention the fact that 'wrong gender' is far more likely to reflect a forged or misprinted passport than it is to actually reflect the character being trans in most cases, considering the game's setting and time period

the game doesn't force you to act on people looking differently to the gender on their passport, but failure to do so results in sanctions as it runs contrary to the rules of the border checkpoint


sidenote: stop trying to retcon history, trying to erase historical inequalities and prejudices is an awful thing to do and incredibly disrespectful to the people who have suffered them.
farridd Aug 12 @ 3:20am 
I saw someone playing this game on Youtube and he said something like:
"Well, this is 1982, you just had to be woman or man, nothing between it. If this was 2017, entrant could say: 'I am bi-polar, transgender homosexual helicopter!' and it you won't let him in, THEN you will be arrested" :-D :-D :-D
Ryuu Aug 12 @ 3:21am 
Now i want to play a 2017 edition of Papers Please :D
laff Aug 12 @ 6:44pm 
Originally posted by Laika:
I have played the game for several hours so far and I like that it gives you (moral) choices. You can strictly follow protocol but you also have the opportunity to not go by the rules all the time. But one thing really bugs me: the "invalid gender" thing.

Yeah, some people do not "look like" the gender that's on their passport. Why? Because it's damn difficult for transgender people to get the gender on their passport changed. And I know what I'm talking about, I've done it myself. It took years. Many trans people are in that awkward position where they live as their true gender and express themselves the way they feel right. But because it's so difficult to legally change your gender they still have the gender on their passport that was assigned to them at birth. People should not be punished for bad bureaucracy and laws that do not favor trans people (to be very polite here).

I like the position the game puts the player into: making choices either based on loyalty to the law or based on your own moral code. But this thing really f*cked me up and that's why I won't recommend this game to friends and family.
I would like to point out that you started this thread and that I am not being rude or impolite.
https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/gender-ideology-harms-children
Have a nice day. :-)

Originally posted by ⎝HaSe⎠Domme:
Well I would like to point out, that you startet posting offtopic material and that I'm just posting a comment to show how legitimate the ACPeds ist.
What I posted is from March 2016 and does not cite anything mentioned in what you posted from 2010 which also does not discuss gender ideology or this game, so your material is off-topic. My link is to an article on gender ideology, this thread is about gender ideology not being in this game, so that material is on-topic.

Originally posted by ⎝HaSe⎠Domme:
No wonder the ACPed is considered to be a hate group.
Yeah, yeah, everyone who doesn't agree with you is a hate group or it's hate speech or whatever. We've all heard it before. Can you really not bear any diversity of thought?
Last edited by laff; Aug 14 @ 2:30am
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