streaks_art Oct 24, 2013 @ 6:00pm
Are cartoon characters worth more than babies because babies do not have personalities?
This is a startling post, I know. I do not wish to shock people. It's just that on another discussion I started, the topic has segueyed from cuteness (of cartoon characters ie Fidget, MLP:FiM) to babies (human babies). Specifically the value and worth of human babies.

I have received replies in this post that I did not expect and find troubling. It started out with me saying that babies and cartoon characters (ie Fidget) are cute, and the reply was that no, babies are gross. Now I'm thinking, "I have two cousins with babies right now, and I don't see them grossing out. I sure ain't. So what does this replier mean when saying that babies are gross?

We then found ourselves (me and this replier) extrapolating on the value of babies.

My last reply to this replier was extremely long. I'll try to keep this post short:


Are babies worth less because they don't have personalities? If so then:

Are cartoon characters worth more than babies because babies do not have personalities and cartoon characters do?

Why would someone reply such things to anyone; things that suggest that babies, having no personalities, are worthless until they grow up with personalities, hopefully a good personality?

Is this a "Western" way of thinking, that babies are worthless until they grow up with personalities?




I am trully and utterly appalled by all of this. I may have made a mistake in making that other post, wishing to have discussions about this game and furry-art in general. ;___;

UPDATE: I have deleted the other post as it has become irrelevant. This post too will be deleted soon enough, as it is irrelevant to begin with and is nothing more than an extension of the first post.
Last edited by streaks_art; Oct 24, 2013 @ 10:46pm
Showing 1-15 of 15 comments
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Mint Vanilla Oct 24, 2013 @ 8:25pm 
I don't mean to sound insensitive, but this thread has nothing to do with Dust: An Elysian Tail, and you are (intentionally or not) painting the other person like he's some kind of evil villian for thinking that human babies are gross. As far as I could tell in that thread, that person did not say that babies are worthless, nor that fictional characters are worth more than real-life babies, nor that babies should be gotten rid of. It could be that he just really does not like babies, for any number of reasons. Perhaps he said it a little more matter-of-factly or black-and-white than you might prefer, but I think that you may be taking this a bit too far.
streaks_art Oct 24, 2013 @ 10:33pm 
Originally posted by Mint Vanilla:
I don't mean to sound insensitive, but this thread has nothing to do with Dust: An Elysian Tail, and you are (intentionally or not) painting the other person like he's some kind of evil villian for thinking that human babies are gross. As far as I could tell in that thread, that person did not say that babies are worthless, nor that fictional characters are worth more than real-life babies, nor that babies should be gotten rid of. It could be that he just really does not like babies, for any number of reasons. Perhaps he said it a little more matter-of-factly or black-and-white than you might prefer, but I think that you may be taking this a bit too far.
This is what the other person said:

Copied and pasted before the other post was deleted:
Babies, on the other hand, do not have such a thing as a personality, which is to say they have no redeeming quality. The only good thing about babies is that eventually they stop being babies and just might grow up to be decent people rather than assclowns.

My cousin's new baby daughter was taken out of her room around lunch today, and everyone (her older sister's friends, the servants, my mom) can't help but smile. Most of them went "a-goo-goo-goo". And she appreciated the attention. And that's NOT a redeeming quality?



Perhaps you are right, but I don't think I can be blamed for the other person looking like a villian. That person is doing that well enough on his/her own.

Like I said, the topic did get much too segueyed from the original topic, which was "is there such a thing as too much cute." I did not intend it to go that way, it just did. I actually was hoping that it go on to the direction of Noogy and Spring.


You are definitely right in saying that both post has become irrelevant to D:AET. The other one has become irrelevant to the game. Therefore, I will delete them. First the other one, then this one after a bit of time to give you a chance to reply, if any.

In any case, this whole unpleasant exercise at least resulted in something good: I am a bit more clear as to what to post in Steam Community Forums. Just because it says "Community" does not mean that I can leave an open-ended discussion.
Last edited by streaks_art; Oct 24, 2013 @ 10:57pm
Tirigon Oct 24, 2013 @ 11:07pm 
^ If you dont want honest replies, why start a discussion?


Anyways, babies surely are not worth less than cartoon characters, the reason being that fictional things dont exist and arent worth anything at all. They are, however, considerably less cute. The 2 things have close to 0 relation.

I should also point out, that if you feel this is no place for such a discussion, you can add me as friend and we can discuss in private, if you wish.
Mint Vanilla Oct 25, 2013 @ 12:00am 
Originally posted by streaks_art:
You are definitely right in saying that both post has become irrelevant to D:AET. The other one has become irrelevant to the game. Therefore, I will delete them. First the other one, then this one after a bit of time to give you a chance to reply, if any.
Well, if you're going to do that, then let me friend you and we can continue talking.
streaks_art Oct 25, 2013 @ 2:00am 
Originally posted by Tirigon:
^ If you dont want honest replies, why start a discussion?


Anyways, babies surely are not worth less than cartoon characters, the reason being that fictional things dont exist and arent worth anything at all. They are, however, considerably less cute. The 2 things have close to 0 relation.

I should also point out, that if you feel this is no place for such a discussion, you can add me as friend and we can discuss in private, if you wish.
If you are only referring to cuteness, then I can agree with you. I am that sort of person that sees many babies (and kids by extension) to be not cute. And even if they are cute, their attitudes can really really suck.

For example, a little girl pestering her mom and dad who are in a meeting with us. I mean, "Kid, really? Get a clue!" But hey, she's a kid. And I most certainly will not hate her for it. In fact, I could even say that it was kind of funny.

True, yours were honest replies. But none of which I expected. Its just that the overwhelming majority of human beings find babies cute, valuable, and deserving of our love and affection. Just because they do not have fully developed personalities does not make them worthless or worth any less. It only means that they are growing and that they have the potential for growth.

In fact, part of my reply to you in the post I deleted was that potential is a big part of what it is to be human. You and I aren't babies anymore. We have more or less solid personalities. Does this mean that we are more valuable than babies?
Last edited by streaks_art; Oct 25, 2013 @ 2:05am
streaks_art Oct 25, 2013 @ 2:01am 
Originally posted by Mint Vanilla:
Originally posted by streaks_art:
You are definitely right in saying that both post has become irrelevant to D:AET. The other one has become irrelevant to the game. Therefore, I will delete them. First the other one, then this one after a bit of time to give you a chance to reply, if any.
Well, if you're going to do that, then let me friend you and we can continue talking.


Tirigon and Mint Vanilla: I would do that, but is there really anything to talk about?
randomizer Oct 25, 2013 @ 2:22am 
Originally posted by streaks_art:
Does this mean that we are more valuable than babies?

That depends what metrics one is using to determine value, and that is possibly a whole other philosophical debate.
streaks_art Oct 25, 2013 @ 2:26am 
Originally posted by randomizer:
Originally posted by streaks_art:
Does this mean that we are more valuable than babies?

That depends what metrics one is using to determine value, and that is possibly a whole other philosophical debate.
Yes it is. But I like your answer. It's not as...emotionally taxing to me, probably because it is stated in an objective manner.
Tirigon Oct 25, 2013 @ 6:04am 
Originally posted by streaks_art:
If you are only referring to cuteness, then I can agree with you. I am that sort of person that sees many babies (and kids by extension) to be not cute. And even if they are cute, their attitudes can really really suck.
Yes, I am only referring to this.

Judging the value of human beings, although tempting and in some special cases (rapists, murderers....) probably justified, is a slippery slope. I dont want to be THAT GUY who brings up Hitler in a discussion, but well.... He is a quite good example of what happens if you want to classify humans in worthy and unworthy ones.

For example, a little girl pestering her mom and dad who are in a meeting with us. I mean, "Kid, really? Get a clue!" But hey, she's a kid. And I most certainly will not hate her for it. In fact, I could even say that it was kind of funny.
Children are not babies though. Once they learn to use the potty and to speak, even if it's just gibberish, instead of screaming, most of the problems that make babies gross disappear.
I wouldnt't call them cute, because it is an adjective I dont much like used on humans, but I can see what you mean at least.

True, yours were honest replies. But none of which I expected.
That's the best kind then, if you only read what you knew already reading it was kind of a waste of time
Its just that the overwhelming majority of human beings find babies cute, valuable, and deserving of our love and affection. Just because they do not have fully developed personalities does not make them worthless or worth any less. It only means that they are growing and that they have the potential for growth.
I never said it makes them worthless (although, I have actually read about a philosopher who said exactly that, I will try if I can find it and link it to you later, as it is certainly an interesting, though shocking, point of view).
It does, however, make it very hard to relate to them - and just from a visual PoV, what exactly IS cute about babies? I honestly cant understand it.

In fact, part of my reply to you in the post I deleted was that potential is a big part of what it is to be human. You and I aren't babies anymore. We have more or less solid personalities. Does this mean that we are more valuable than babies?
Like I said, judging the value of human life is a road I dont like to go down.

It is also purely a matter of how you classify worth. From a capitalist PoV, for example, babies are worthless as they do not work or buy products. Although, to the baby food industry, they are probably worth billions of dollars.......
Tirigon Oct 25, 2013 @ 6:19am 
Here's the guy I mentioned above:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer

The part I was thinking about was
Similar to his argument for abortion, Singer argues that newborns lack the essential characteristics of personhood—"rationality, autonomy, and self-consciousness"[25]—and therefore "killing a newborn baby is never equivalent to killing a person, that is, a being who wants to go on living."

Please keep in mind that this is quite out of context here and you should read further for yourselves before judging.

Why I bring it up here is that, even though I disagree with his consequential judgement of value, the initial point about lacking rationality, autonomy and self-consciousness (and therefore personality) is undoubtedly true.
streaks_art Oct 25, 2013 @ 7:20am 
Originally posted by Tirigon:
Originally posted by streaks_art:
If you are only referring to cuteness, then I can agree with you. I am that sort of person that sees many babies (and kids by extension) to be not cute. And even if they are cute, their attitudes can really really suck.
Yes, I am only referring to this.

Judging the value of human beings, although tempting and in some special cases (rapists, murderers....) probably justified, is a slippery slope. I dont want to be THAT GUY who brings up Hitler in a discussion, but well.... He is a quite good example of what happens if you want to classify humans in worthy and unworthy ones.

For example, a little girl pestering her mom and dad who are in a meeting with us. I mean, "Kid, really? Get a clue!" But hey, she's a kid. And I most certainly will not hate her for it. In fact, I could even say that it was kind of funny.
Children are not babies though. Once they learn to use the potty and to speak, even if it's just gibberish, instead of screaming, most of the problems that make babies gross disappear.
I wouldnt't call them cute, because it is an adjective I dont much like used on humans, but I can see what you mean at least.

True, yours were honest replies. But none of which I expected.
That's the best kind then, if you only read what you knew already reading it was kind of a waste of time :D:
Its just that the overwhelming majority of human beings find babies cute, valuable, and deserving of our love and affection. Just because they do not have fully developed personalities does not make them worthless or worth any less. It only means that they are growing and that they have the potential for growth.
I never said it makes them worthless (although, I have actually read about a philosopher who said exactly that, I will try if I can find it and link it to you later, as it is certainly an interesting, though shocking, point of view).
It does, however, make it very hard to relate to them - and just from a visual PoV, what exactly IS cute about babies? I honestly cant understand it.

In fact, part of my reply to you in the post I deleted was that potential is a big part of what it is to be human. You and I aren't babies anymore. We have more or less solid personalities. Does this mean that we are more valuable than babies?
Like I said, judging the value of human life is a road I dont like to go down.

It is also purely a matter of how you classify worth. From a capitalist PoV, for example, babies are worthless as they do not work or buy products. Although, to the baby food industry, they are probably worth billions of dollars.......


Originally posted by Tirigon:
Here's the guy I mentioned above:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer

The part I was thinking about was
Similar to his argument for abortion, Singer argues that newborns lack the essential characteristics of personhood—"rationality, autonomy, and self-consciousness"[25]—and therefore "killing a newborn baby is never equivalent to killing a person, that is, a being who wants to go on living."

Please keep in mind that this is quite out of context here and you should read further for yourselves before judging.

Why I bring it up here is that, even though I disagree with his consequential judgement of value, the initial point about lacking rationality, autonomy and self-consciousness (and therefore personality) is undoubtedly true.

Your two posts are very well made. I'm impressed.

Now I am getting a much MUCH better picture of what you mean.

And for that, THANK GOD. (Serious sigh of relief).
Tirigon Oct 25, 2013 @ 7:45am 
So am I

On another note, I would appreciate if you wouldnt delete the thread.
If Noogy feels it inappropriate on this forum he can delete it himself, and if it unintentionally breaks any rules, the Steam mods will do it.
Otherwise I think it should stay, even if it is not related to DUST: AET. After all, just because we like video games and furry cartoons doesn't mean we're too dumb to discuss serious matters, right?
Last edited by Tirigon; Oct 25, 2013 @ 7:47am
node357 Oct 25, 2013 @ 11:29am 
well, some people think a person's entertainment value defines how worthwhile they are. those people are called psychopaths. at least you know who to avoid.
streaks_art Oct 25, 2013 @ 8:24pm 
Originally posted by Tirigon:
So am I :sectoid:

On another note, I would appreciate if you wouldnt delete the thread.
If Noogy feels it inappropriate on this forum he can delete it himself, and if it unintentionally breaks any rules, the Steam mods will do it.
Otherwise I think it should stay, even if it is not related to DUST: AET. After all, just because we like video games and furry cartoons doesn't mean we're too dumb to discuss serious matters, right?
Ok then. I just deleted the last post because it was seriously making me uncomfortable.
streaks_art Oct 25, 2013 @ 8:25pm 
Originally posted by node357:
well, some people think a person's entertainment value defines how worthwhile they are. those people are called psychopaths. at least you know who to avoid.
Indeed.
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Date Posted: Oct 24, 2013 @ 6:00pm
Posts: 15