Marbur Sep 3, 2013 @ 10:54pm
Two towers are already out of date when you receive them.
Some towers can be useful when you get them. Later they are replaced by better towers, normaly grey towers replaced by gold towers and gold towers are replaced by red towers.
For example wood is replaced by stone and stone is replaced by dragon.

There are two towers worse than their predecessors.
Snake (gold tower) is better than spray (red tower).
Slowing (grey tower) is better than stun (gold tower).
Both towers I would not even use if they do not occupy a free slot.

For starters evolve these towers when you need the space in your collection, but wait with fusing till you have all other towers developed.

Does anyone know if they will improve these towers?
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Honorable_D Sep 4, 2013 @ 11:00am 
Snake vs Spray is a bit weird. Spray does a full 360 I believe while Snake does a small cone and a DoT. Spray is only good on corners where it can make much better use of its 360 attack.

Slow vs Stun I don't see much. The Stun tower does waaaaay more damage than the Slow tower + it does like 300% more damage to those cart things. The actual stun triggers pretty often but its not the sole reason you take the tower.

Anyways, you really need to compare maxed out cards with each other. The Snake goes to only lvl 15 vs lvl 25 of the Spray etc.
Sirrus Sep 4, 2013 @ 11:06am 
Spray tower has its uses, at least on early stages (heh, for unique tower that's practically a death sentence:D). Its advantage over Snake tower is even area of attack, everywhere around it, so it doesn't have to rotate to attack enemies moving from from different directions. On later stages it is nearly useless, that's true.
Stun tower, like Puncher, are way above my understanding of their use. Simply put, I don't get their purpose.
I'm not sure my advice for evolving can be relevant, not only because I did mine during pre-order era, but also because of very random cards' drop.

As for improvements, I think we need something that could slow flock-based enemies, because currently there is nothing effective, there are too many of them for Slow tower to handle and you can't place a lot of them in front of your AA cluster. Spray could be modified in terms of raw damage/RoF/range (say reduce damage, but dramatically increase RoF, akin to water sprinkler). Puncher could be quite more appealing for "% to instant kill" instead of higher critical: if Sharpshooter can't kill many enemies with one shot, a current Puncher's bonus won't make a difference.

As for "on paper" damage comparison (kudos to Honorable_D), at evolution 40%:
Slow - RoF 0.77, Damage 327, Range 271, per 120 prime.
Stun - RoF 0.88, Damage 1192, Range 292, per 220 prime.
Snake- RoF 0.77, Damage 596 (DoT 3628.8 over 5.6 seconds), Range 188, per 260 prime.
Spray - RoF 0.55, Damage 1971, Range 143, per 280 prime.
Anyone feels like calculating?:)
Last edited by Sirrus; Sep 4, 2013 @ 11:14am
Marbur Sep 4, 2013 @ 11:56am 
I've started playing with version 1.1 and have ervery tower on evolution level 3 and every tower and spell on max level (still working on some towers for the 85% evolution bonus). So I talk about fully devolped towers.
The damage of slowing and stun are both uninteresting and I see only their stunning and slowing effects. Slowing gives you 36.9% of slowing for 4 sec and stun 1 sec of knock out with a probability of only 25%. My opinion is that stun is more expensive but worthless.
300% bonus to the damage of a very weak tower against only a slow enemy doesn't make him a damage dealer.
Puncher can be usefull if you get him early. His effective ground damage is near stone and the bonus against ghosts can rock for some time. His drawback is his impotence against flying enemies.
I agree with Sirrus that slowing and stun are without a chance against flocks. There sould be a splash efffect, at least. As long as you don't have ice slowing works good against some early Bosses.
Last edited by Marbur; Sep 4, 2013 @ 11:59am
Marbur Sep 4, 2013 @ 12:35pm 
Here are the results from my calcultions for damage per prime in time
(pure damage, no dot, no bonus):

Slowing (85%) GD: 2,87 AD: 2,87
Spray (85%) GD: 3,98 AD: 0
Stun (85%) GD: 4,77 AD: 4,77
Energy (80%) GD: 10,33 AD:0
Puncher (85%) GD: 10,57 AD:0
Stone (80%) GD:12,48 AD:8,73
Dragon (85%) GD:14,69 AD:8,81
Prime cannon (80%) GD:18,57 AD:9,28
Air guard (85%) GD:0 AD:17,97

GD= ground damage AD= air damage
Last edited by Marbur; Sep 4, 2013 @ 12:36pm
Sirrus Sep 4, 2013 @ 12:38pm 
Ack, I completely forgot to list additional info, my apologies Marbur. Yes, in terms of additional features Slow tower looks more useful for me, because chance to slow is permanent and longer, while Stun's tower chance to stun is floating and delay is too short. I'd took Energy tower over Stun any day, even ignoring knockdown effect (yes, just 5%, but it works).
I tried to use Puncher while replaying earlier levels, even in upgraded form, it's not that useful by my opinion. Of course, if it is first card you got after Starter's booster, than it will be welcomed, yet, given game's "kingdom of random", I can't say for how long.
As for flock/pack based enemies, in terms of utility means against them, there are only spells, because even group of any of utility towers, like Accursed, wouldn't be able to effectively shift their fire to equally "process" each target. Even if they are trying to. So yeah, on Heroic difficulty it usually were bats who got further through my defenses than anyone else (excluding revigorating jolt patients, of course).

As for you chart, I got slightly different numbers, probably because mine are evolution 40, but yes, overall chart look similar. However, practice is different, because I've seen rather weird things, when towers' "paper" damage wasn't supported by practical application.
Last edited by Sirrus; Sep 4, 2013 @ 1:01pm
Marbur Sep 4, 2013 @ 1:14pm 
Lightning is the best allround tower, when it hits 5 enemies it can do up to 19,86 damage per prime.
Lightning (80%) GD:6,62 AD:6,62
For air defense air gurad is against single enemies much better and slightly better for flocks.
Hitting one enemy directly and only one with splash does more damage than lightning hitting 5.

Best example for disapointed exspectations is prime cannon, it has so good values on paper.
Last edited by Marbur; Sep 4, 2013 @ 1:22pm
Marbur Sep 4, 2013 @ 2:02pm 
This discussion about slowing tower reminded me of Asp, ice couldn't slow him.
With slowing tower I pushed now my scores to 259 and 469 in heroic.
Even a grey tower can be useful on heroic. :)
Last edited by Marbur; Sep 4, 2013 @ 2:06pm
Sirrus Sep 4, 2013 @ 3:27pm 
Of course, it's hard to play without Accursed and Detector towers. :)
Jokes aside, I've been experimenting with some towers. First test was a side by side comparison of Prime vs AirGuard in terms of their AA capabilities. I chose Ancient Shrine Normal map. According to my tests, Prime loses a bit - couple of dozens of bats got through.
I tried to compare them against Lightning, but it's somewhat difficult to determine breaking point, prime wise, because of towers' price increase implementation and lack of unlimited resources to build any towers you want for testing purposes. There is some difficulty to determine proper expenses on, say 12 Prime/AirGuard vs 6 Lightning towers.
Regardless, I compared 12 Lightning towers and 24 Prime towers (don't have time to compare Dragon). In terms of expenses, 12 fully upgraded Lightning towers worth 5370 prime. 24 Prime towers worth 5565. So to even the odds, I placed 23 Prime towers relatively "in row", and then placed 24th a bit behind (with full support from Ice/Detector/Accursed).
Well, what can I say - where lightning goes, nothing growth. 12 Lightning towers stopped absolutely everything.
24 Prime towers let about same two dozen of enemies (this time - mostly ghosts) to break through. But, there is some problem. Because Lightning towers placed rather tight - first shoulder of lefel, prior turning, they wipe out enemies fast, thus allowing densier population of enemies due constant "next wave" summoning. And they required less support - becase they are more compact.
Other than that, prime wise, they are almost on par. IMHO Prime tower need "juicier" firing sound, so everyone could agree that happiness is a belt-fed gun. :D
Manxome Sep 4, 2013 @ 8:26pm 
In comparing slow and stun towers, I think you're missing an important point: multiple slow towers don't make the enemies any slower, but multiple stun towers stun them more often. I've seen massed stunning towers become unstoppable in many TDs where individual stunning towers were lackluster. That said, the short times between waves in Prime World make this game a poor candidate for doing anything interesting with either slows or stuns outside of narrow specialized cases, and I've almost totally ignored both throughout the game.

The Spray Tower vs. Snake Tower comparison has a similar issue; massing Snake Towers doesn't work because the poison doesn't stack, while massing Spray Towers does. (Also, as already mentioned, Spray Tower fires in all directions at once, while Snake Tower only hits a cone.)

Spray Tower vs. Flame Tower is pretty interesting though--they're both pure-damage uncapped AOE towers with ground-only attacks and the same attack range. And a max level (25) Spray Tower does roughly 10% more damage (per prime-second) per target than a max level (5) Flame Tower.

That's not a typo, TEN percent. With a 20-level advantage.

Let's compare to Prime Gun vs. Wood Tower. I don't have max stats for the Prime Gun handy, but I think the pure damage towers are all linear. At level 1 the Prime Gun does about 119% of the Wood Tower's D/PS, and the Spray Tower does about 45% of the Flame Tower's D/PS (against a single target). In order for the Spray Tower to be a comparable upgrade to the Prime Gun, we need to assume it hits about 2.7 enemies for every 1 that a Flame Tower would hit.

...I'm not prepared to rule that out completely, but it seems implausible even on highly favorable map layouts.

Though the Spray Tower should (in principle) benefit MUCH more from range increases than other towers do. With a range-boosting anomaly in just the right place, you might be able to do something interesting.

Also notice that Flame/Spray towers make Frost towers quite a bit better.
Honorable_D Sep 5, 2013 @ 1:57am 
Seems the consensus is the Spray tower is quite underpowered. Perhaps we should bring this to the devs attention.
Marbur Sep 5, 2013 @ 10:31am 
That was one idea behind starting this thread.

I experimented a little with different towers on the first square of prime-hunt (normal).
A detecor (1x upgraded) was build left the square.

PI= prime injector
IC= Ice
AG= Air Guard
DE= Detektor
EN= Energy
SP= Spray
SN= Snake
PO= Poison

First build: every EN and AG one time upgraded
EN IC EN
AG PI AG
EN AG EN
The only problem were 2 ghosts from wave 48, but because of the range the energy cannons could reach them just before they could steal prime.

Second build: every SP and AG one time upgraded
SP IC SP
AG PI AG
SP AG SP
Same problem with 2 ghosts sliping through and only one was killed by the detecor. A fifth Spray tower or an addional upgrade is needed.

Third build: 3 additional SN distributed over the map. Every SN and AG one time upgraded
SN IC __
AG PI AG
__ AG __
It looked good at the start, but ended not so well. Main problem is that the snake unlike poison tower doesn't try to poison as many enemies as possible. Snake stupidly fires always at the first enemy.

Fourth build: 3 additional SN distributed over the map. Every PO two times and AG one time upgraded
PO IC __
AG PI AG
__ AG PO
This build started directly with 5 towers and no one sliped through. A two times upgraded poison costs the same as a one time upgraded spray.
What poison lacks in damage it compensates with intelligence, because it tries to dot ervery enemy.

Result
You can can stop the 50 waves with 4 Energy towers, this is also the cheapest solution. When using snake, spray or poison you need 5.
I have to admit, snake is even more dependent from its position than spray.

Funny
Poison is a grey level 5 tower and works as good as the red level 25 tower spray.
Sirrus Sep 5, 2013 @ 6:31pm 
Greatest problem with Stun tower, by my opinion, of course, is that Stun activated not too often, and for a very short time. And 165 prime difference is just 0.2 seconds. Yes, that little. Tier 1 tower got 1.0 second stun, tier 2 - 1.1 and tier 3 1.2. So what's the point upgrading it? Better build tier 2 Dragon tower. Also, massing Stun towers uses valuable place, and prime with little to no effectiveness (on higher levels/difficulty), because you usually cannot mass Stun towers while keeping enemies within range of other tower. In some cases you can, but, see above - "not enough minerals". So there is a kind of a Morton's fork - whatever you do, it will be worse. Ice tower generally more effective against ground targets, uses only 50 prime (less than 1 Stun tower), and covers greater area. Slow towers for non-pack/based enemies can do similarly same job, for similar price, only using a bit more space, to use them before Slow effect wears off. Stun tower's bonus vs Wagons is about effective as napalm in firefighting, especially given tower's price.
As for Poison/Snake/Spray towers, well, on higher levels, especially on Heroic, they are borderline effective. Basically ineffective. Because you need to place a lot of them, and they are not cheap. Placing Mortars on second line of defense usually pays for itself much better, in terms of dealing with pack-based enemies, and placing Lightning towers is quite effective against flock-based one too. Though as rule against invigorating jolt Mortars will do alone, while packs are dealt with head-on increased numbers of AirGuard towers.

On a side note, Energy towers' AI (as well as Mortar towers') actually loses more from current "attack leader" behavior, because of properties of those towers' projectiles. Mortar's shell does splash, which is more effective against tightly packed enemies, Energy shot is capable to "pierce" through several enemies in column. So while you prepared "killzone" (quite easy to do on first 3x3 square on Prime hunt, on in fight with Flower Queen boss, or on Mission 9), Energy towers instantly loses all their "power versus mob" when they shift their fire on leading enemy, simply because their projectiles are no longer travel along the trail and attack fewer enemies. Mortars, distracted by Ghosts (usually them) waste their precious shots on them, ignoring very tightly groupped enemies, practically begging for shelling.
Also, I can't get rid of feeling that both Snake and Toxic towers use their DoT feature quite badly, not shifting their fire to "spread the love":) evenly. Plus I don't find their DoT that much of attractive, not just on paper, but also on practice.
Kelson Sep 6, 2013 @ 6:14am 
Yeah, we really need the targeting for these towers adjusted to emphasize their strengths, or we need to be able to program each tower ourselves (options like in some other TD games: target first, target last, target fastest, only target each opponent once, etc.).
Manxome Sep 6, 2013 @ 7:18pm 
I haven't used the Toxic Tower extensively, but when I did it appeared to be spreading out its fire like the Poison Tower does.
Sirrus Sep 7, 2013 @ 12:13pm 
Yes, Toxic tower does spread poison over enemies and shifting fire to spread it equally. Problem is DoT if ridiculously small, so what's the point? You won't use BB gun against rhino. Unless you playing Fallout and have overwhelming criticals. :D
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