Prison Architect > Obecné diskuze > Detaily tématu
amd133mhz 29. pro. 2013 v 4.44 odp.
I don't understand Early Access?
OK let me rephrase...I do not understand CHARGING for a broken game. How about instead of making a really cool promo trailer video telling us all the things that are wrong with a broken game you want $15 for...you spend that time fixing the bugs and release a completed and working game for $20? And it's not just this game but I felt the need to post this simply because in the trailer that looks like it took an hour to assemble and upload, they take time to remind the viewer/potential buyer that the game is broken. I get it. Alpha. Back in my day, when a game needed work and was not ready for a final release for sale to the public, they had this crazy thing called Beta. People signed up, got a pre released version of the game for FREE and helped the devs fix the game by reporting issues with it. CRAZY!! Now devs are basically saying "we want your money NOW , then we will fix it. Call it 'early access/Alpha' " This is crazy times gamers live in.

Before I get flamed from the fan boys of early access, Yea yea I know no one is forcing me to buy it while it is broken...But my point is good devs didn't ever do this before. They literally gave you the beta version for FREE to help them fix it. And in a lot of cases, beta players were rewarded in some way for their time and effort of bug reporting.
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[UBER] TheLordOfEvil 29. pro. 2013 v 4.50 odp. 
The difference between beta and alpha is that betas are meant for fixing bugs and balancing, whereas alpha is meant for developing the core game. This way we get direct influence in changing the game and how it gets created. If being part of the development process doesn't interest you then don't buy an early access game and just wait for it to be released, it isn't very difficult.
Amiths 29. pro. 2013 v 5.15 odp. 
What i really dont understand is why te hell people buy an ALPHA game to then start crying because the game is not finished or because they paid for the game. You really paid for the alpha game to then cry because you paid for it? really?

Please show me any indie developer that didnt done a paid alpha/beta. Even minecraft done that, every indie company do that because they dont have tons of money to develop a game for free until its released. You may think developing a game its free but it isnt, like everthing in life you need money.

And really dont buy games marked as Early Acess if you are going to cry because you paid for it. LOL
amd133mhz 29. pro. 2013 v 5.20 odp. 
UBER TheLordOfEvil původně napsal:
The difference between beta and alpha is that betas are meant for fixing bugs and balancing, whereas alpha is meant for developing the core game. This way we get direct influence in changing the game and how it gets created. If being part of the development process doesn't interest you then don't buy an early access game and just wait for it to be released, it isn't very difficult.


I understand all that and I support the notion but not unless it is free. That honestly is my biggest issue with it. Start a kickstarter, do a fund raiser whatever but I think it is premature and , well, unprofessional to ask me to purchase an "alpha" . There are better ways of doing it if money is what they need. And quite frankly, most of these, not all but most of these devs are not broke college kids with nothing but a linux based pc in a dorm room. I understand what you are saying and I really do support the notion, but I think it should be free OR funds raised with something better in mind.
amd133mhz 29. pro. 2013 v 5.24 odp. 
Amiths původně napsal:
What i really dont understand is why te hell people buy an ALPHA game to then start crying because the game is not finished or because they paid for the game. You really paid for the alpha game to then cry because you paid for it? really?

Please show me any indie developer that didnt done a paid alpha/beta. Even minecraft done that, every indie company do that because they dont have tons of money to develop a game for free until its released. You may think developing a game its free but it isnt, like everthing in life you need money.

And really dont buy games marked as Early Acess if you are going to cry because you paid for it. LOL

Oh totally. I have never bought one and do not intend too. I think the whole concept of charging for something that is broken and incomplete is stupid. IMHO
Darth Invader von Wookiee 29. pro. 2013 v 5.30 odp. 
Are the devs forcing you to buy their games in any way shape or form? also, back in "your days" you didn't even have access to internal alphas, not even for money.

These are indie developers "indie", what you didn't think about except them being just a few guys trying to make their ideas reality (AKA taking years of development to get everything they dream of on "paper") is that through this new practice of alpha access they literally build the game "consumers want". Nobody can think of everything, even if the developers have some brilliant ideas they will never see all the flaws and missing features of certain aspects and such flaws have already been fixed/improved with feedback from the community (I've been keeping my eyes on it for quite some time, waiting for the right moment which was this latest alpha build).

I personally just bought it a few days ago, didn't really have time to get into it, but it was love at first sight, there's just something that draws you in and makes you feel excited for the next time you enter the game like few games still manage to achieve these days, it didn't feel lacking and it's still in alpha.

Beta is something entirely different from the concept of alpha and you seem to not get it, it's not catchy and developers assume their consumers will be smart enough to understand what it means but this is "pay to get early access and help make our game the game you want to play".
Skirmisher 29. pro. 2013 v 5.33 odp. 
OP didn't buy this game so I don't care. Let him be read and ignored.
Satoru 29. pro. 2013 v 5.41 odp. 
amd133mhz původně napsal:
OK let me rephrase...I do not understand CHARGING for a broken game.

Alpha access gives developers some of the most critical feedback in what is the most important phase of the game.

What is FUN

Note you can think and plan that all day long. But at the end of the day it's impossible to tell what is actually 'fun'. What you see even in a late stage beta, is NEVER what is thought up in a designers head at the beginning of the development.

Look at Xcom:EU. GOTY, multiple awards, accolades from critics and gamers. You'd think Jake Solomon was a damn genius bridging Xcom to both PC and consoles. What you didn't see were the two OTHER Xcom games he made that were trashed in the process. Games that were very far into post production.

http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/1/31/3928710/making-of-xcoms-jake-solomon-firaxis-sid-meier

Once you're in beta, generally you're feature locked and gameplay locked. You can't change major mechanics. You can't add major features. You're 'stuck' with the scaffolding you built in the alpha, and if you built that scaffolding on mud ground and using toothpicks, then no matter how much beta testing you do, you can't really 'fix' it.

Alpha access allows devs to get ideas and feedback at a time when things are more flexible. Entire system can be rebuild or trashed. Starbound has already obliterated their leveling system in their alpha from user feedback. Something that would have been almost impossible if you were too far down the production process, once you build so many systems around it.


Before I get flamed from the fan boys of early access, Yea yea I know no one is forcing me to buy it while it is broken...But my point is good devs didn't ever do this before.

Just because somethign is 'new' doesn't mean it's 'bad'. Most devs assumed useres didn't want to be part of the process. Most devs assumed no one would want to pay to play a broken game. While said process is not for everyone, it's obvious that thinking was incorrect. There are a SUBSET of users who want to be part of the process. And they're willing to pay for it.

They literally gave you the beta version for FREE to help them fix it. And in a lot of cases, beta players were rewarded in some way for their time and effort of bug reporting.

Those kinds beta was used to solve a different problem than Early Access is solving. Early Access in addition to the 'traditional' beta process, can also be used to solve problems like:

1) Assist in the funding efforts for games which has traditionally been difficult for many indie devs. Note that before you'd be STARVING for potentially years while making your game. Borrowing money from friends and family to do your passion project. You can see this struggle in the Indie Game Movie, where the Super Meat Boy dev/designer duo show how pretty awful things were before they broke out with SMB. It was a labor of love, but it wasn't easy and involved a lot of sacrifice. Crowdsourcing is a new method for devs to reach out to users directly. Similar to how musicians and videos are reaching users directly rather than using producers as middlemen.

2) As noted above allowing feedback from users early in the process, CAN allow for more dynamic game development and incorporation of different ideas at a time when doing so is easier. Rather than a late 'bug test' beta where if you heard some kind of awesome idea your response woudl be "Uh... hold that though until we make the sequel"
Naposledy upravil Satoru; 29. pro. 2013 v 5.44 odp.
joshman 29. pro. 2013 v 5.56 odp. 
If you feel its unfair to pay for a "broken" game, then don't buy it, no need to have a hissy fit. Alot of games wouldn't be released at all if it wasn't for to early access. Not every developer has enough capital to fully fund a complete game before getting paid for it.
amd133mhz 29. pro. 2013 v 6.06 odp. 

joshman původně napsal:
Not every developer has enough capital to fully fund a complete game before getting paid for it.

Kickstarter.
McJaggernaut M.D. 29. pro. 2013 v 6.25 odp. 
^^^ @satoru
Satoru 29. pro. 2013 v 8.37 odp. 
amd133mhz původně napsal:
joshman původně napsal:
Not every developer has enough capital to fully fund a complete game before getting paid for it.

Kickstarter.

Not every kickstarter is successful. And Early Access is actually better than Kickstarter in that at last you have SOMETHING to play right from the outset.
Dufflebags 29. pro. 2013 v 9.37 odp. 
This is just as good as kickstarter, if not better because you get something back for your money right away.

And you haven't even played Prison Architect, who are you to call it completely broken? Even in early access, early alpha this game is more than playable. It's actually better then many full fledged sims. You're entitled to your opinion, even though it's biased and unfounded. Unfortunately, unlike the good old days video games aren't exactly cheap to make... many cost millions of dollars just to develop, and you can't even guarantee any return.

That's why small time developers have to resort to early access or kickstarter to get their ideas out there. Most big time producers, developers won't make anything that can't guarantee some sort of profit margin - that's why you see so many sequels and clones of successful products. Big time developers can't be bothered to take a risk.

Early access and kickstarter are good things, even if you don't think so. Too bad you can't see it that way. Comparing the development of a modern game to something out of the 90's is just stupid. No offence. With people supporting this kind of thing we see more original and fun games hit the market that would never exist otherwise.
Dufflebags 29. pro. 2013 v 9.41 odp. 
Furthermore, as opposed to getting the opinions of a small select group of paid beta testers you get a less biased opinion of an entire community... Which ultimately improves the quality of the product. No one likes that feature? Let's remove it/change it to make it better.

Also, no one is twisting your arm. If you're in this forum in particular trying to pick apart the concept of early access it's obvious you actually WANT this game, but are chapped that it costs money... lol
Darak 29. pro. 2013 v 9.48 odp. 
Reading through this thread, is your issue more that they're doing early access, or that they came to steam to do early access?

You've said several times how they could use sites like Kickstarter to fund their creation (which I believe they did run a kickstarter, i might be thinking of another game though >_> ). I love this game. I've been with it since alpha....?....since bout apirl XD, bought it in july. I'd buy it all over again and for more money, infact I'm going name in the game this week :D. but anyhoo...I never would have known about it if it wasn't for Steam's Early Access. I'm glad their here, I'm glad Early access is here, and will continue to support this game, this community, and the indie community in general.
RussIsWatchinU 29. pro. 2013 v 10.06 odp. 
Well, when you have game devs as dedicated as the PA ones are, you feel like you're getting great DLC for free at the end of (nearly) every month. New features, bug fixes, input from the community, and optimizations? Why WOULDN'T you be happy with this early access? I've definately find this game to be one of the best games I've purchased on early acess/alpha level games.

And maybe you're against funding for a game before it's finished, but what's the difference in that and buying DLC? You could say that the standalone game is incomplete until the GOTY edition comes out with all of the DLC, right? I mean, at that point the game has all of it's content completely finished, right? Same logic.
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Datum odeslání: 29. pro. 2013 v 4.44 odp.
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