dietz.martin Jan 12 @ 7:22am
The Eagle's Nest - how to win this fight?
Hi,

I'm playing the game in German, so it might be, that the names of the quests or special attacks I mention do not fit the English names, but most of the time I don't remember the name exactly enough to check it's translation on the wikia pages.

The problem that I have is the fight at the Eagle's nest, that "Conquerer ante portas" quest you have to do to save Celapaleis. The fight starts unfair when Castanea can just use a "Victory Cry" to lower all morale and it continues to be unfair as Castanea and his sidekick may use special moves that can instantly kill a whole group (like the "Kilohit" or the "Catapult"). Also it seems they are not limited to "1 round, 1 attack" as their special move "catapult" can be used, although the lady already had her special attack in that round, and Castanea once used some "Overdrive" force (between the battle rounds, that alone is unfair too) to attack 3 times in one round to kill the whole group (and he was the first one to attack in that round).

So... to come back to the question. Despite this unfaireness, is there a special trick to win this fight? Is going out for grinding to level up some more useful (at the moment my group is on level 59) than just trying this batttle over and over again just for the small chance that Lady Luck might be smiling to prevent these killer attacks? Or do I have to be unfair to game too (i.e. are there any Cheats to survive this battle like an invulnerability cheat or so)?

Regards
Martin
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lirmont Jan 12 @ 6:18pm 
You are outnumbered in that fight, but, if you use the mini-map in the upper-right during battle, you can attack units that are far away from the two bosses for several turns. Use that time to get your morale up, while clearing out those unions; Victory Cry is easily offset by using flank attacks and morale-damaging skills. Overdrive is a concept that gets used several times in this game, and the only real ways to deal with it are to (1) black the unit out (like with Snare Shot; doesn't work on most bosses), (2) flank, rear assault, or massive attack the unit (so it can't attack), (3) block or dodge its attacks (shield or high Physical Evasion), (4) have enough HP to suffer the damage (not usually a viable endgame approach), or (5) have a combination of enough morale and HP to suffer the damage. Once the battle simplifies itself to just your unions and the bosses (i.e. when the bosses start deadlocking your unions), it's tempting to take one out and ignore the other. The problem with that is that the death of one or the other is what unlocks the Overdrive skill. If you don't have a successful way of dealing with it, wait to kill them off closer together, since Overdrive doesn't mean they get more turns (so if you tell your unions to hang back, only one of your unions is really ever going to be in danger after that point). Basically, don't impale yourself on the Overdrive technique by throwing unions at the leftover boss.
warutaru Jan 12 @ 8:24pm 
Instead of telling us your "level", tell us what characters you have, what skills they have available and what are their classes.

Without knowing what you have to work with, all I can say is
1) Stick David in the union with the most AP. During battle, constantly change your targets to see if the Gae Bolg command comes up. With a bit of luck you should get two of these in the battle.
2) At the start of the battle, 'Close In' on the army that appears at the top left of the minimap (i.e. avoid the Boss).
3) Save / Revive the Guest Union if possible. They can help you tank one of the bosses.
4) Kill off Castanea first if you can. Roeas has less HP and thus is easier to deal with.
5a) If you have a character with the Cavalier / Guardian / Paladin / Cleric class, stick them in the union with the most HP and use the 'Defend' option when they go into Overdrive mode (i.e. Start defending when one of the bosses dies).
5b) Stick a healer / reviver in the tanking union.
Zloth Jan 12 @ 9:11pm 
You want to talk about unfair? Every time the NPCs win the player just restarts the battle again from the start. If they lose - even just once - they lose forever! It's rough being an NPC... ;)

Grinding will not help you. Not even a little. (And, if you've been doing so, best stop now.) Nor is there a special trick. What you need to do is get the basics right and play smart.

Make sure you've got somebody who can heal well (preferably whole-group heals) in every union. Make sure the folks who can revive are spread through the unions as best you can, too. (One healer AND one reviver in every group is ideal but isn't likely this early in the game.)

Make sure you are stocked up on all your items - parthicularly herbs.

Kill the little unions first. If possible, stay completely away from the bosses and deal with as many minions as you can. Full group attacks from spells really work well.

Another way to deal with overdrive is to simply not be there. If you get an option to attack from a distance, use it! Assuming you've cleaned all the other enemies off, you might be able to have a union stand back and heal, too. Killing a whole group isn't so bad when you can revive a whole group to full health just as quickly.

Gang up on enemies. Not only does flanking do better damage, it helps morale and leaves the union free to change targets without penalty.
Last edited by Zloth; Jan 12 @ 9:13pm
Seveers Jan 13 @ 12:25pm 
I just managed to do it, though I did get Gae Bolg at a good time.
Deadlylag Jan 13 @ 4:11pm 
Using this strategy you should be able to beat any hard fight. IIRC I've beaten Eagle's Nest at BR 25 using the strategy.

By the time you reach Eagle's Nest you should have 4 Unions open and 12 max characters.

Buy 100 Relaxing and Cureleaf herbs. Buy around 50 Restoleaf. Get 4 characters with the Vivification ability.

http://lastremnant.wikia.com/wiki/Vivification_Herb


Union 1: 5 Characters with one able to use Vivification. Make sure you also have one or more characters able to heal. It doesn't have to be a dedicated healer class. Just characters able to heal (Restorative and/or Restore skill).

Union 2: 5 Characters with one able to use Vivification. Make sure you also have one or more characters able to heal. It doesn't have to be a dedicated healer class. Just characters able to heal (Restorative and/or Restore skill).

Union 3: 1 Character able to use Vivification.

Union 4: 1 Character able to use Vivification.

In regard to Eagle's Nest fight.

Send Union 1 and 2 into the fight against minions. Mob the minions up first before going for the two bosses.

Union 3 and 4 are on standby. Union 3 and 4 only job is to use Vivification. Do not allow union 3 and 4 into combat. Do not use Union 3 and 4 as healers. Union 3 and 4 job is to revive KO Unions.

If a union is KO (including NPC unions). Send BOTH Union 3 and 4 to revive the KO union because most likely there will be another Union that will be KO too. So you end up revive two unions at the same time. Repeat and you should able to beat the quest.

Don't be afraid to break deadlock (Union 1 and 2) to use Vivification or heal yourself.

You can switch back to your normal mix once you pass the hard part.

Scale the strategy if you have more unions and characters later in the game. I used this strategy to beat the rainbow quest at BR 28 without a problem. The quest recommend at least a BR 60.

Last edited by Deadlylag; Jan 13 @ 4:23pm
Seveers Jan 14 @ 9:42am 
I used 3 unions BR25.
All could use vivification.
Got Gae Bolg once.
Zloth Jan 14 @ 7:25pm 
Originally posted by Seveers:
I just managed to do it, though I did get Gae Bolg at a good time.
If you play through the game a second time, leave David at home. You'll still beat the tar out of the encounter. It's amazing how much you learn by the end of the game!
dietz.martin Jan 18 @ 4:12am 
Well, aside from "common strategy hints" (i.e. first kill the small groups, have good healers in every group and only attack the bosses after the other enemies are dead, check whether Omnihit, Ex Machina or Gael Bog are ready against any of the groups) which I already tried, it seems the most common meaning is that it is important to use the Vivification skill, which none of my party member had ever the chance to learn (or is it a special herb skill that automatically is achieved when you got the right herbs with you). I never had even the option to revive a fallen group neither in this fight nor in any one before, and as well Rush as Pagus regularly use herb skills to heal the group.

And yes every RPG is unfair for the NPCs, as they can't reload (well, I think in Baldur's Gate 2 the NPCs you hired did reload after they attacked the PC's party and died), on the other hand, the game defines the rules, so it should stick to the rules. I found a trainer that keeps up the health at 99999 for each group, but even then only 2 of my three groups survived (4 if you count the guest group also, but it was killed in the second round although the cheater supported them too). So the move Castanea does can kill the whole and fully healthy group regardless of the amount of HP the hit steals. And if the battle designer keeps in mind that the user can revive groups to keep the balance, and the user can't, I don't feel remorse to have cheated for that fight.

Thanks anyway, your hints might help others that have the Vivification skill, maybe I try a second run and hten concentrate on those things as running through the game with low BR, concentrating on restoration skills etc. but for the first run, I do what's naturally, and that is, if the party member ask for going out to search for "Fruit of Prela" or "Meteorite" I guess where it might be available and go there. Maybe in that second run I will be able to win this fight without cheating, but for now, I continue with the story and sidequests.

Thanks
Martin
Zloth Jan 18 @ 3:09pm 
I don't know how you can get all the way to Eagle's Nest without anyone knowing how to use Vivication Herb. It's the second power on the Herbs arts list and herbs are the only way to heal at the start of the game.

Are you actually buying the components you need for them? They drop as loot sometimes but not nearly enough to keep the party going. "Connely's Items" in Athlum actually has every type of herb in the game and they are quite cheap.

I guess it's also possible that you're only taking on very, very weak enemies so you never need healing. If you don't push yourself by taking on multiple enemies at once, you'll have a very difficult time with boss fights.
Deadlylag Jan 18 @ 4:21pm 
Originally posted by dietz.martin:
Maybe in that second run I will be able to win this fight without cheating, but for now, I continue with the story and sidequests.

Thanks
Martin

That won't happen. Eagle Nest is a player skill and mechanic check. If you can't pass it without cheating, you probably have to cheat the entire game. Some of the side quest are very very hard. Much harder than Eagle Nest.

The Last Remnant IMO is pretty easy JRPG as long as you understand how to abuse the game mechanic.
dietz.martin Jan 19 @ 11:00am 
My characters seldom use herb powers to heal, whenever healing is necessary, I somehow only have mystic art for healing available without breaking up a blockade (or however the meelee combat is called in the Englis version of the game), but in these arts nearly every member of my whole party is accustomed to.

And also: Whenever possible I even use the timeshift-feature of Rush to collect as many enemies as possible. Assuming I would try go to the game "the easy way" is insulting! Think about your logic to assume I don't heal because there's a specific skill I can't use! I do heal, but all my healing skills only help, if a group is still alive, and when the game kills a fully healhy group in one hit I can't revive them and this group is lost for the rest of the battle!

To the vivification herbs themselves: there are a lot of herbs dropped by enemies none of my party members can use although the game only says "used in herb skills" (e.g."Heilungszwiebel" which I have to sell regularely to be able to get more again), I asked whether I need to buy them, as it doesn't seem to be the right herbs they drop, if the game never offered to learn Vivification, which it should, if I had the right herbs with me (at lest that is what I understand from what you told me about the Vivification skill in this thread). So maybe the game has some logic failure if you need to learn a skill to use special herbs, but you can only learn that skill by using these herbs, we in Germany call this a "Teufelkreis" (circle of devil), if you're outside you can't get in, and when you're in it, you can't get out.

To Deadlylag: 1.) I don't want to abuse the game mechanics, like in other games, using the restrictions of a game engine to your advantage (like e.g. an enemy group not attacking you, when you attack them with summoned monsters only, or other bug exploits) still has the stench of cheating on it, and if I cheat for one fight because the game itself breaks its own rules this doesn't mean I can't USE the game mechanics for a normal fight.
2.) The only way for me to learn about game mechanics is what the game itself told me. Steam did not install ny documentation for this game, and it took a while until I found how to get the screen commands shown in PC keys instead of console keys, and I think for that I'm doing a good job so far, keeping the whole party alive, and doing sidequests whenever I see them.
1+2.) A game is poorly designed, if you have to exploit the game mechanics (aka "powerplay the game") just to survive it, instead of acting like your character would do in a common sense (or whatever in a JRPG-world would be common sense). You won't find any soldier, police(wo)man or other intelligent being in the real world that gets willingly hurt just to train the body to heal better, so why do you accept this kind of logic in a RPG (just an opinion).
3.) This is the only fight in the game I ever had to cheat so far, and now I'm in Nagapur (for the second time) going to the sewers (or aquaeducts?) to sneak into "Wurmfeste" (I guess it's English name is "Wormhold"?). When you think I won't make the game without knowing more about the game mechanics, why don't you tell me what is important? How would you try to win a fight when the enemy can kill the whole fully healthy group A just by defending against group B and you don't have the possibility to bring them back to the fight gain? Don't you think I have to know a bit of the game mechanics or else I wouldn't have made it that far?
4.) I think from what was posted before it's clear, that to win this fight without cheating you need the Vivifivation skill in at least two groups. So for that fight, this skill seems more important than understanding how to protect against these "kill the whole group" attacks knowing the game mechanics. From your logic I can also say "the game is pretty easy as long as you understand how to control the computer the game is running on".

So Deadlylag, I tell you something I don't tell a lot people (just because there are only few who really need this kind of advice), but if you can't say anything useful, it's better to keep your mouth closed (or your fingers still in this case) instead of running the danger to cross or even insult someone.
Deadlylag Jan 19 @ 2:11pm 
TLR is an easy JRPG game. TLR is also a strategy game. 98% of all players are bad players.

1. Abusing the game mechanic is not cheating. Abusing the game mechanic is not exploiting. You on the other hand cheated and try to lessen the guilt.

Developers expect very good players to abuse the game mechanics. In fact they do it themselves.

People that abused the mechanic are better players. They think of new ways to improve their game play. They understand the game inside out. They are willing to change in order to be better players. They think.

Twitch.TV had a recent stream on speed runners. Games that normal takes 30 hours to complete only took 1 or 2 hours for these players. They didn't cheat or exploit. What they did abuse the game mechanic and understand the entire game inside out.

2. By the time you reach Eagle Nest you should have understand the basic of the game. Eagle Nest is a skill and mechanic check. In order for anyone to pass that point they need to understand the very basic of the game. It is a very easy battle to win.

I had trouble with Eagle's Nest the first time I went there. Three tries and all failures. What that tell me? The strategy I was using wasn't working. So I need to change. I did not whine, I did not cheat. I took my dog out and found a solution to the problem.

3. By the time you reach aqueducts half of the game is almost completed. If you haven't learn the game mechanic by than you're pretty much screwed. TLR game mechanic is very simple compare to other games like "Path of Exile".

4. You are unwilling to change, to adopt. That's why you are failing. You will never be better with that attitude. Never improve in life. With that attitude everybody is to blame for your failures.
lirmont Jan 19 @ 5:42pm 
Originally posted by dietz.martin:
You won't find any ... intelligent being in the real world that gets willingly hurt just to train the body to heal better, so why do you accept this kind of logic in a RPG (just an opinion).

It's true, but you can purchase the services of someone who is capable of practicing medicine in both the real world and this game. Unlike the real world, there is no Amazon.com in the game. You buy ingredients for item arts (for herbs, potions, lotions, explosives, shards, and traps) in different cities, including cities that are not directly part of the main plot.

There are lots of catch-22's (Teufelkreis) in a complete first playthrough of this game. For example, if you advance the story, you can get access to advanced consumable ingredients (for item arts), but you give up completing certain quests during that playthrough. However, I don't find the game all that fun when the morale bar starts on the far right (as it does when you out-rank what you're fighting) and you can one-shot kill groups, but those devil's circles are traps that keep the early content entertainingly difficult. Though, you will actually have to go looking for the cities and the game's content, using any of the bartenders' assistants dialogue as an in-game guide.
dietz.martin Jan 24 @ 2:39pm 
Deadlylag:

Part 1: What do you think why the verb you mentioned is called ABUSE, and not USE TO YOUR ADVANTAGE? It's called ABUSE as you use something in a way it was never meant to be used. For example:
  • If I hack into your smartphone just to always know where you are, I ABUSE a mechanism that was created for ensuring that you can use your phone everywhere and still get the best connection.
  • If I buy a coffee at McDonalds just to sue them later because the coffee was hot, I not only ABUSE the mechanism of getting food for money, I also ABUSE the law system created for bringing justice and order to the coexistence of men, and protecting the weak from the mighty.
  • Nature never intended someone willingly eating or drinking poison but created a mechanism to lessen the pain by flushing the organism with endorphin. By intoxicating yourself you ABUSE that mechanism to feel good.
  • Childs are thought to bring fun to parents alone by them being there. At that moment that you ABUSE them for sexual joy, you can't justify that with the argument that "players who abuse ... are the better players"
Abusing is ALWAYS bad! It might be, that those who know the rules better than others can abuse the game mechanics, this might make them the MORE SUCCESSFUL players, but never the BETTER players. Anyone even thinking in this way can also go out, kill underpriviledged and supress them by his brute force like a good and brave Aryan!

Developers of a game (normally, that means in Western CRPGs, I don't know how it is usually in JRPGs, TLR is my first JRPG maybe the Japanese culture is a bit other in this concern) create a world where a balance is kept between the creativity and intelligence of the gamer on the one side and the possibility of super fast reactions and control over the game world by the game on the other side to make that game beatable and a challenge at the same time. In the very moment that you ABUSE game mechanics, you break this balance. You use the fact, that the developers could not prevent all misuse of the program and in this way you are cheating the developers for their effort to bring you a balanced game. Again think about ABUSING the game mechanics: if you win, did you beat the game or just the developers? You don't win by controlling the actions of the character in that world, you just control the rules with which the results of the actions of your character are computed, so why do you think, you played the game? By controlling the rules in any other way than intended by the developper, you're changing the game. What would sports look like if you can win every game just by blackmailing the referee (also a kind of abuse, you abuse his feelings for whatever he cares more than the game).

About the "fun" of speedgaming: If you pay 50 Euro for a game, that should entertain you 150 hours, and you finish it after 3, what did you pay 50 Euro for? Just to say that you were smarter than the game developer, because you invented a way they didn't (they would have blocked that way, if they had seen it)? "I lately finished a marathon in less than one hour, just by using a car, so I'm a better sportsman than everyone else" ???

And I don't want to "lessen the guilt". I cheated and I admit it! I might have triggered a bug that denied me the possibility to use a revive skill at that stage of the game, but I think it was a wrong character developping strategy due to the fact that I didn't even know that such a skill exists. That's why I said, that I plan to play it a second time to see if I get my characters outfitted with the skill I need at that time of the game to even being able to think about following your strategy hints. And what was your answer? "That won't happen" Not anything like "To get this skill you have to concentrate on ... in early stages", no "If you can't revive, you have to adapt the strategy in a way that..." NOT ANY NEW HINT! You simply assumed that as I had to cheat for a fight that even you would not be able to survive without that specific skill (and this I assume due to the fact that you STILL not have given any other hint, so that I might be able to load a game before that fight and continue the "honest" way), I would have to cheat for every other fight too. How arrogant! "You are not doing it like I did, so you are doing it wrong and will never be able to do it right"???

Part 2: Like you, I failed at the fight,but not only three times, FIFTEEN times on two weekends (I can only play on weekends as my job needs me in Karlsruhe) with different strategies like keeping away from battles and fighting only one group after the next, only attacking from far with all groups, healing at the slightest injury to try to be at full health the next round again, and more. None of these helped, that was why I asked in this forum for a better strategy, and those who tried to help (even you tried this at first) told me that I need characters being able to use a skill called "Vivification" to revive fallen groups as it seems impossible to avoid getting groups killed (or any definite hint would have been in that direction). You said you found a way to survive this fight? Well let me guess... you changed the groups so that there are characters with "Vivification" skills in more than the dedicated "healer" group to spilt the risk. No? Next guess... You decided to break a blockade to use "Vivification" for a fallen group which you haven't done before. Wrong again? Let's try again... You decided to let the groups that have "Vivification" healers heal themselves even when they lost only a few HP, so that they will still be awake, when they are needed to revive the other group. OK I have too few information which problems you faced to guess the solution, but if you really think that the right strategy can be found, then tell me how you have done it without that specific skill everyone (even the Wikia page) is hinting at for that particular fight.

It might be or not, that my characters have this skill or not, but fact was that if the game ever offered to revive a fallen group, I would have used that option. The first time I ever saw a "bring them back" in the game was after freeing Irina from Lord Hermeien. And from that moment on this game is a piece of cake (well the German word "Kinderspiel" would bring a good joke in that sentence as this is still no game for kids). So for whatever reason caused, that the game did not let me revive fallen groups earlier, it was neither possible for me to win this particular fight with the strategy you and others offered (as all these strategies needed especially that skill), nor was it possible for you or others to offer different strategies. So I decided for cheating and I admit this open. I'm not whining! I'm not even defending the cheat! I just complain about you thinking, just because I cheated once I will continue cheating and avoid the challenge a good game brings with it.

Point 3.: Why do you STILL think I know too less about the game mechanics to play the game? Last weekend I already reached the aquaeducts beneath Nagapur, doesn't that show, that I'm capable of playing the game and found my way of playing it successfully? I could in the same way say, you know too less about how to keep your characters alive, as you needed the Vivification skill as a fallback strategy to even reach the Eagle's Nest. But this would be unfair to you as you just play another style.

Point 4. Just in case you still are unable to read what I'm writing: I'm not failing! Neither in this game nor in life. But if being "unwilling to change" means being unwilling to leave behind ethics like "I will not kill", "I will not steal", "I will respect other human beings and their work, opinions and beliefs" or even changing from "I want to help him" to "I want to insult him" (I still don't know why. Because I proved that your "help" was useless? That can happen to everyone and is no reason to feel personally attacked) in an instance like you did, well, I think then it is positive to not change. Being that egocentric that "he is not adopting my way of playing a game" is equivalent to "he is not able to adapt" is in my opinion a much bigger hindrance than being principled.
Last edited by dietz.martin; Jan 24 @ 2:49pm
billy Feb 26 @ 7:10pm 
This fight me rage quite after 3 failed attempts :). Thing i didnt like is every other fight was a lot lot easier , a big difficulty spike with insta kills is bad game design in my opinion.

My problem is i have a lot of healing but no ressurection . I'll give it another go but theres always a part were i get unlocky and they crit and insta kill me and it all collapses.

in hindsight i would train herbs for resurrection and im sure i could train it up very quickly but kind of seems silly having a fight were it becomes a basic must have skill.

edit - I tried the fight again tonight and did it first time , i think i was just getting unlucky with crits before. Didnt need to res or use one of the big powers.
Last edited by billy; Feb 26 @ 8:03pm
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