Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition > Discussioni generali > Dettagli della discussione
Tzzimy 23 gen 2013, ore 3:45
[Resolved] Reserving legal actions against Valve for denying cancelling of purchase of Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition (EU related)
LAST UPDATE: The game is installed and working fine. I request for a lock of this thread as it has been resolved.

As I already have informed Valve through the ticketing service I wish to inform the customers that purchased this specific product that I have already filed a certification of disputed transaction for my credit card through my bank and I reserve legal actions against the company for not complying with EU directives for "not performing" and for no "accessibility" of the product.
The Directives mentioned are:
1. 97/7/EC on the protection of consumers in respect of distance contracts (which has effect until 13 December of 2013)
2. 1999/44/EC on certain aspects of the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees
3. 2011/83/EU on consumer rights (ammending the above directives as of December 13 2013).
As stated in article 19 of 2011/83/EU: "...in such contracts, the consumer should have a right of withdrawal unless he has consented to the beginning of the performance of the contract during the withdrawal period and has acknowledged that he will consequently lose the right to withdraw from the contract. In addition to the general information requirements, the trader should inform the consumer about the functionality and the relevant interoperability of digital content. The notion of functionality should refer to the ways in which digital content can be used, for instance for the tracking of consumer behaviour; it should also refer to the absence or presence of any technical restrictions such as protection via Digital Rights Management or region coding. The notion of relevant interoperability is meant to describe the information regarding the standard hardware and software environment with which the digital content is compatible, for instance the operating system, the necessary version and certain hardware
features."
In short as the license agreement also states from the moment we "agree" the "beginning of the performance of the contract" we lose any right for refund.

HOWEVER in the Directive 97/7/EC Article 7 p2:
"Article 7

Performance

2. Where a supplier fails to perform his side of the contract on the grounds that the goods or services ordered are unavailable, the consumer must be informed of this situation and must be able to obtain a refund of any sums he has paid as soon as possible and in any case within 30 days."

Which in this product case the digital product fails to perform even after download began (therefore the contract was "concluded" and purchase done without the right of refund according to Valve license) and since the game is NOT ACCESSIBLE they fail to perform on the contract itself therefore they are entitled of a refund.

Also on article 8:
"Article 8

Payment by card

Member States shall ensure that appropriate measures exist to allow a consumer:

- to request cancellation of a payment where fraudulent use has been made of his payment card in connection with distance contracts covered by this Directive,

- in the event of fraudulent use, to be recredited with the sums paid or have them returned."

In the case of this game for those that the game cannot launch or start and TIME HAS BEEN REGISTERED AS PLAY TIME (in my case 1 min) there is clear fraudelent use of my payment card and actions should be taken by the bank to redeem the sums paid.

I am also copy pasting the new regulations from Directive 2005/29/EC from The Unfair Commercial Practices Directive and the paragraph concerning your failure to comply from the Guidance document for the above mentioned Directive:
"2.6.4.
Application of the information requirements in Article 7(4)
...
The existence of a right of withdrawal or cancellation (Article 7(4)(e)) must be mentioned in invitation to purchase where applicable, for example in case of distance selling (e-commerce, telephone, etc). At the invitation to purchase stage, traders are only required to
inform consumers about the existence of such rights (without detailing the conditions and procedures needed to exercise them). It is worth noting that in a recent EU-wide investigation in to websites selling consumer electronic goods (a "sweep"), national authorities found that 66% of the websites investigated either did not provide information on the right to withdraw or provided misleading information about it..."
There is no mentioning of existence of a right of withdrawal or cancellation either than a total rejection of any such right in the license agreement.

I am sorry if I got you tired with all the legal stuff, but I reserve my right to inform all consumers and gamers about their rights, how they are handled by this company (they deny that some of the above directives apply to digital products when they DO).

As a small note another well known gaming company (I am not mentioning their name for obvious reasons) immediately acknowledged all the above legislations and agreed to a refund when I proved to them that the data of a faction change did not change as it should). I wish this company shows that it respects their customers and their rights and be professional and acknowledge the problems created by this specific product. I do have a lot of games purchased from Valve I am very happy with their service until this incident and I hope they will take actions to resolve them reasonably.

Regards,
Tzzimy (Edited my details under the rules and guidelines of this forum) Please request to add me as friend, or post here if you have problems with this specific game.


Ultima modifica da Tzzimy; 30 gen 2013, ore 8:23
Visualizzazione di 1-15 commenti su 238
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Eorl 23 gen 2013, ore 3:49 
u wut m8
Bossonova911 23 gen 2013, ore 3:51 
he definetly wants his 20$ back. LOL
LoneWolfDon 23 gen 2013, ore 4:04 
If you looked or asked for help on the forums, or over on the official Baldur's gate forums, posted about what the problems was and your computer's specs, perhaps you may have got some solution to correct the problem of the game not working properly for you.

Forcing a charge-back to get back what you spent on the game, most likely Steam will lock your account (as they tend to do with charge-backs), so though you may get your money back that way (by forcing a charge-back), chances are any other games you may have bought via Steam would be locked-out to you as well.

Anyways, yeah, good luck with all of that.
Tzzimy 23 gen 2013, ore 4:11 
Thank you for your reply and I understand your concern of my account lock-down. Believe me I have read almost all posts for technical specifications and how to "fix" the program but the issue for me is not only that the specific product does not perform but more of morality against customer rights due to the inoperability of games delivered and the absence of the right of withdrawal in case something is going wrong. I find this very alarming and I wish to express it.
I do have the right to express myself as a customer that I feel I have been under fraudelent use, don't you?
Every purchase I made through this service was perfectly performing and I must say I was quite happy with the overall performance of valve software, the services and yes even the pricing!
I am only asking to be treated with respect as a customer, I have bought a lot of games from this service and I intend to buy even more, but when it comes to performance I do ask them to be delivered and be accessible the moment I make the purchase and the download is concluded. It is the least I can ask as a customer. I really want this to be resolved on mutual understanding of our agreements and obligations from both parts.
Ultima modifica da Tzzimy; 23 gen 2013, ore 4:18
LoneWolfDon 23 gen 2013, ore 4:27 
I agree that you should get a working product you pay for.

But, before going the forcing-a-charge-back route, did you do the things as I suggested (checking the forums and/or asking for help on the forums for what might have been a simple solution to get the game working properly for you)? Or were you in contact with Steam Support over the matter, and what did they tell you?

I don't make Steam-Policy, I'm just an end-User / Gamer like yourself, and yes, it would be frustrating to buy a game, looking forward to play it, and then it not work.

But, there's no need to panic or go all lawyer-legaleez-like. If I do get a game that's not working properly (which happens sometimes, not often though), with a little bit of homework about if other Users had similar problems as me, and what did they do to fix it (sometimes it's a simple fix, like maybe setting a Compatibility mode or disabling desktop-composistion, or being sure drivers are up to date and computer specs meet requirements, etc..), or with a bit of tweaking of some settings somewhere, I can usually get such games to work.

If after trying to do the resonable things you can to try and get the game running as it should but you've not had any luck with it, then the next step is usually to try and contact either Steam Support and/or the Publisher's Support and/or the Developer's Support (sometimes they ignore you, or respond with non-helpful copy-&-paste type answers, or try to pass-the-buck or point the finger at someone else, but sometimes they actually do reply with a helpful solution).

Anyways, good luck with it all. Hope you can get things resolved satisfactorily.
It's a great game, too bad you're not able to enjoy it.
Ultima modifica da LoneWolfDon; 23 gen 2013, ore 4:29
Robik 23 gen 2013, ore 4:29 
I prefer good old "I will stop doing bussines with you.", instead of using this law abomination EU created. It happened to me once that i bought game on steam which does not want to start on my computer. Annoying... but i can live with that as long as it is very rare exception.
Tzzimy 23 gen 2013, ore 4:37 
@LoneWolfDon
I agree with you 100% and believe me I did try to fix the game, until i got frustrated because I do love this great old game. I stand to my comment above for the reasons and customer-view concerns I explain.
@Robik
I am trying to protect myself from such incidents because it might have happened once to you and said "ah who cares" but when it happens a 2nd or a 3rd time you will start asking yourself the same questions I have. But I agree that if no resolve can be made and my concerns are not addressed the best action is what you suggested.
Ultima modifica da Tzzimy; 23 gen 2013, ore 4:44
MrPuffin 23 gen 2013, ore 6:03 
tzzimy, be patient and wait a few days until the game has been completely updated to the current Beamdog version. If it doesn't work then with the near thousand bug fixes in that, THEN you can go ape ♥♥♥♥.
Tzzimy 23 gen 2013, ore 7:04 
Ye i saw those million fixes and thats why i went mad.
Try to understand I am a total old game-lover, I already downloaded and played XCOM - UFO DEFENSE and Terror From the Deep (I love the 2nd more because it was actually the first game i played from the series xD ) and I was so happy when I saw those old dos games really WORK on windows 7 64 bit whatever the bugs and problems but they were ACCESSIBLE (by been able to load and run) and PERFORMED. Every single one of all the series I bought. There I started falling in love with Valve.

I am a 38 year old Chemical Engineer - IT Software Consultant having worked for companies like GSK, PPTA, Dow Automotive, Rhodia and many others and when contracts were made, always the issue was the PERFORMANCE/ACCESSIBILITY of the delivered product. I never, ever had a complaint from a customer for a fully delivered solution in my professional life.
I expect the same from serious companies like Valve, especially when other well-known software game companies resolve such issues in less than 3 days (yes the refund was immediate after I made my case explained by phone). Not only they refunded my faction change digital purchase that went wrong, I still own a free faction change whenever I wish for my specific MMORPG character.

But I seriously consider your suggestion to wait for the patches (as it should have been done in the *%$)*#$)* first place before any availability of this game title). The 97/7/EC Article 7 p1 from the EU directive actually mentions a 30 day period of failure of performance/accessibility although I do have the right to cancel my purchase if I feel that there is FRAUDULENT USE against me! Anyway I will get a beer and try to calm down! :))
Thanks for the impressive and excellent feedback and the great level of community support and suggestions. It makes me feel I am in the right place here.
I really hope Valve acknowledges our concerns, especially on the no-purchase-cancellation policy which is in total contradiction with our rights as EU customers.
Phearitself 23 gen 2013, ore 8:20 
so you are suing to get back 20 dollars?

just out of curiosity... how much are you paying the lawyer to get the 20 bucks back?

or is he one of those class action parasite lawyers who are hoping a ton of other people sign up for the lawsuit and that is why you are posting it on these forums?
Tzzimy 23 gen 2013, ore 8:33 
Thanks for your reply Phearitself.
I informed my bank to stop the payment through my credit card for this specific purchase as been a possible victim of fraudelent use. The credit card I am using is specifically designed for purchases from a distance which is covered by both EU and UK laws. They take it from there, I do not pay any lawyer. :)
The matter is not the 13 EUR, its the fact that the product is not performing/not accessible and the lack of the right of purchase cancellation as every seller is oblidged to acknowledge in his license agreements.
Ultima modifica da Tzzimy; 23 gen 2013, ore 8:34
Phearitself 23 gen 2013, ore 8:39 
ahh so you are in Europe. that explains it.

in America it would most likely cost you more than the game was worth to pay a lawyer to get the money back. the only way to make it work without losing money would be to get hundreds of other people to join in with you in a class action lawsuit, where the laywer doesn't charge up front but takes a percentage off the total winning cash settlement.

anyway. good luck getting your 20 bucks back.

i do agree with the above poster though.

i wouldn't be surprised if you would just be patient and wait a week or two. they would probably release a patch that fixes your problem. i have bought a couple games from steam that didnt' work right away but do now.
Elazul 23 gen 2013, ore 8:57 
Consumer rights for the win! Good luck!
Tzzimy 23 gen 2013, ore 9:05 
Ye its the reasoning in gaming logic and I am also in accordance to it, as it is covered by the EU directive as well (currently for 30 days period) to wait for updates, do tweaks, fix registry etc.

But I am taking it a bit further from the problem of the specific game non performing. What does protect us if a game does not perform/not accessible when we download it from Valve? Why it is not covered in the license agreement? Why a total rejection from any refund? Why only copy pasting one sentence about the "start of download" and the "conclusion of purchase after the starting of download" when the whole EU directive is in a total different direction about refunds and purchase cancellations using the same copied-pasted sentences. Why other gaming companies have more fair treatment against their customers to my knowledge on this subject?

As gamers we are used to think "oh just wait for the patch" which I also acknowledge sometimes, and believe me I am patient too, but why we always have to think like that, and not exercise our right for purchase cancellation? On every contract I make for a software solution I provide as a consultant with big companies there is always a mention that the customer has the right to cancel the purchase if the product does not perform/ is inaccessible. Why not in this case?
I so apologise if my legal stuff are overwhelming all of you guys, but on the other hand we have the right to express our opinion, negative or positive and I accept all and take under consideration all critisism.
Anyway taking that beer now and trying to re-install this wonderful old loving game and see if there is any update that made it load now... Thanks for the support <3
Ultima modifica da Tzzimy; 23 gen 2013, ore 11:21
LoneWolfDon 23 gen 2013, ore 9:48 
If you post details about what problems you're having with the game, along with your computer's specs, and what steps you have already taken to try and fix it on your own already, maybe someone may be able to give you some suggestions that might help in fixing the problems you're having.
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Data di pubblicazione: 23 gen 2013, ore 3:45
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