Swashbuckler's

[id]

What's the opinion on Swashbuckler's? From everything I've seen, they are kind of a red-headed stepchild class, losing a major benefit of being a thief for arguably worse "benefits" in increased weapon skill. It got me thinking about the 1/2 attack they don't get for specializing... would anyone really be against that? Perhaps it would make them a better class if they had this slight, crossover bonus. It may be against typical D&D rules (I don't follow that stuff), but you can't argue that BG1/2 doesn't bend the rules some of the time (as there are examples of illegal class combinations and such, or so it has been said).

Anyway, just a thought. It may not make them an altogether better class or pick than a thief, but it may help bridge the gap some.

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Originally posted by id:

What's the opinion on Swashbuckler's?

Fine for dual-classing them into Fighter as soon as they've learned enough about disarming the most traps in the game with/without using potions. Haha!

[id]

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

learned enough about disarming the most traps in the game with/without using potions.

What is that, anyway?

[fauxpas]

I personally use a mod that gives everyone who is able to specialize that extra APR and it doesn't really break balance that I can see. However with that said, assuming you are playing 2.x (shame on you!) focus on Detect Illusions first, and then spilt between lockpicking and detect traps.


However, Imoen makes a classic swashbuckler so I use Keeper to turn her into one. (I'm convinced that had they existed in BG(1) the real devs would have Dyna be a sorceress, Imoen a swashbuckler, and Minsc a barb.)

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

There are so many ways how to play the game. Do you insist on using single-class characters? Perhaps multi-class but not dual-class? Do you insist on creating only a single main character and no custom companions? Do you want to continue into SOD and BG2EE afterwards? Do you want to avoid skill overlap by different companions?

The Swashbuckler traits are explained in the fine manual. Nothing more is needed to decide on whether to play a Swashbuckler. I mean, you could also play a pure Thief. Or avoid the Thief class/kits altogether and rely on NPC companions to provide thieving skills. That a pure Thief isn't needed is meta-gaming. I've played a full Assassin all the way from BGEE far into BG2EE, but have given up eventually, because using stealth and boots of speed to backstab enemies wears off in BG2EE, gets much more resource intensive and requires increase efforts. So, if you read the manual, do you see any compelling reason to play a Swashbuckler? A role-playing choice maybe? As not to play a plain Thief?

[jonnin]

EH, backstab is over-rated. The amount of micromanagement vs the actual real damage done over the course of the game is hard to justify if its not your 'thing' or just not your 'thing' on this play-through.

A swashbuckler is a great thug type build, good for an orc. Me hit you, take lunch money. Don't need that good of a pick pocket score to rifle the pockets of a dead guy. Its good for people who are not going to micromanage spells and consumables to build and maintain a backstab rogue. Remember it can dual katanas or use a 2h, the penalty was loss of backstab, and that is already gone.. and it hits more consistently, and it attacks every round (no need to back off to hide to backstab again). Average it out... its really not that big a loss.

I would put it dead even with the other rogues and suspect that over a standard (no mods) play of bg1,2,3 it would be about equal in total damage done if built well, and with far less hassle. A dedicated full bore and fully supported backstab rogue will beat it, but again, that takes a LOT of micromanagement, and I doubt it will beat it by that much.

[wendigo211]

They're kind of sucky in BG, but better in BG2. The Swashbuckler is basically a Fighter with lower HP better AC and only 1 APR. They will also eventually get a nice damage bonus, but it won't eclipse what a Fighter gets from advanced specialization until BG2. You can get around the low APR in BG2 with Belm, the Scarlet Ninja-To, Kundane and the returning throwing knives. You don't have any extra APR weapons in BG.

The Shadowdancer is the best rogue in BG, because there are no enemies who can see through stealth until you get to SoD. You can litterally solo the game on LoB just by backstabbing and restealthing before the enemy gets a chance to counter attack, even Aec'Letec doesn't have a counter. Of course about midway through BG2, enemies start being able to detect stealthed enemies and by the time you get to ToB enemies who can be backstabbed are rarer than enemies who can't. The Shadowdancer and Swashbuckler basically have reversed power curves.

[jonnin]

Originally posted by wendigo211:

They're kind of sucky in BG, but better in BG2. The Swashbuckler is basically a Fighter with lower HP better AC and only 1 APR. They will also eventually get a nice damage bonus, but it won't eclipse what a Fighter gets from advanced specialization until BG2. You can get around the low APR in BG2 with Belm, the Scarlet Ninja-To, Kundane and the returning throwing knives. You don't have any extra APR weapons in BG.

The Shadowdancer is the best rogue in BG, because there are no enemies who can see through stealth until you get to SoD. You can litterally solo the game on LoB just by backstabbing and restealthing before the enemy gets a chance to counter attack, even Aec'Letec doesn't have a counter. Of course about midway through BG2, enemies start being able to detect stealthed enemies and by the time you get to ToB enemies who can be backstabbed are rarer than enemies who can't. The Shadowdancer and Swashbuckler basically have reversed power curves.

At high levels shadowstep can save the day by taking out a caster or archer that was being unfriendly, or get in a good place to scroll/wand... It is still an amazing class, for that alone.

[ÄmJii]

Swashbuckler's THACO and Damage bonus applies to ranged weapons too, Swashie makes good use of Tuigan's Bow and returning throwing daggers.
As others have mentioned, off-handing Belm, Kundane or Scarlet Ninja-To (at Epic levels) alleviates low APR count nicely. You could get serious mileage out of throwing darts too since they have base 3 APR.

Another thing to try out is to dual into Mage after you've hit 10th Swashie level. This nets you enough thief skills to cover lockpicking and trap spotting/disarming (which are 90% thieves job description), while leaving room to build up a very competent spell flinger.

[Cattywumpus]

The only change I would make to Swashbucklers would be to give them two pips in two weapon style at the start like a ranger. A class sold as a dual weilder should be better at it.

The class, like all thieves, has a severely limited number of weapon proficiencies and trying to fit dual wielding in is problematic. By giving them a couple of pips you can increase their desirability at low levels without increasing overall power very much.

[red255]

In baldur's gate 2 you have a bunch of dual class mages (nalia and imoen) who started with a few levels of theif then dualled to mage.

Swashbuckler would have been a more useful choice.

so if you are taking theif for a few levels then dualing to something else swash is fine or even ideal

but no as a high level thing, there are better choices.

[ram3o]

There nothing wrong with swashbuckler as they are the best thief class in the game. Yes, they lose out on backstab, but they make up for it with combat bonus stats while maintain all their thieving skills. While a fighter/thief might dish out more damage than a swashbuckler, their thieving skill progression is as slow as an assassin. The swashbuckler can fill the party's thieving needs while also being great in combat.

[Biggus Dickus]

Never tried it myself, but I reckon they'd make a good candidate for duelling into a cleric, if you're looking for a supporty character. The loss of backstab doesn't hurt that them that much because a normal cleric/thief can only backstab w/ staves and clubs, which aren't all that.

[Damn_Monkey]

Originally posted by Mysterious Druid:

The loss of backstab doesn't hurt that them that much because a normal cleric/thief can only backstab w/ staves and clubs, which aren't all that.

The Highest damage backstab weapon in the game is a Staff[baldursgate.wikia.com]

[Gustuv Wynd]

The only thing I can say good about the swashbuckler kit is that it will make for really good ranged thief. Any other single class thief won't be backstabing with ranged weapons either and will have a worse THACO and AC. Plus the swashbuckler gets whirlwind attack eventually (which works with bows and slings) and much faster than a fighter would.

Oh, and they aren't bad if you dual them into mages. It is kind of like a fighter/mage/thief that levels much faster (whose fighter traits are rather gimpy, but still decent).

[Eisenfell]

they are okay in BG1 just give them throwing daggers.. 2 apr and they add str bonus, as half orc/dwarf you can even start out with 19 con get bucklys and get free regeneration out of candlekeep.

godly in BG2 , take Firetooth+3 in your mainhand , belm+2 in your offhand and add the +1/2 attack bracers and you run around with 4,5 of 5 possible APR mowing down trash with a warriors Hit values and massive bonus dmg , not to mention running away with AC.

enemy needs a high + enchant weapon or is magicly warded ? swap to staff of magi turn on whirlwind and watch those enchants go away , for greater effect add keldron with paladin sword to the mix and have 2 ppl strip magic.
(i love UAI)


i take a Swash over any other Rogue every day of the week.