Kinetic Void > General Discussions > Topic Details
Alphastorm Aug 11 @ 5:09pm
Don't Agree with new Newtonian Flight Mode
First of all, from a gameplay perspective, the advantage of Newtonian Flight mode was to be able to travel at a constant acceleration to reach higher speeds and cover long distances in shorter time, with the disadvantage being that the ship would maintain it's velocity it the direction you were traveling, and would continue to travel at a constant velocity in that direction if you changed direction.

Based on real newtonian physics, this is of course, how a space ship would behave in real life, as an object moving at a constant velocity is at rest, and if acted upon by a constant thrust force, it would maintain a constant acceleration.

Now, the fact that you have changed Newtonian flight mode to simply give you a speed boost is just completely silly. First of all, there is no such thing as a speed limit in space, and from a gameplay perspective, you have completely removed any advantage of this mode. If my ship can travel at 1000m/s in regular mode, and is limited to 2000m/s in Newtonian, then there is no longer a point to Newtonian mode since both speeds are quite slow when distances in the game are so large! At least you still maintain a constant velocity in the direction you were heading, but now this feature has no point since it is too much of a disadvantage to balance out the meager boost in speed you get!

This change just really doesn't make sense. If you're going to advertise full newtonian physics in your game, then give us full newtonian physics! You had it right, the gameplay mechanics were solid and intuitive, and functional from a gameplay perspective. There was nothing wrong with a ship that could constantly accelerate without a speed limit. And now you've taken this feature away! This was one of the features that defined this game, a feature that really wasn't present or implemented as well in any other game, and now it's been removed.

Now you really shouldn't be calling it "Newtonian Flight Mode" as it's not really fully "newtonian" anymore! If the ship is being acted on by a constant thrust force, it should maintain a constant acceleration, and it no longer does this.

Please, convince me as to why this change is advantageous, because right now, I'm just not seeing it.
Last edited by Alphastorm; Aug 11 @ 5:13pm
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Froz Aug 11 @ 5:33pm 
It's a gameplay-over-reality decision, really. Those things get made during this phase in development. If you wanna argue that the Newtonian part of the store page should be removed, and the in-game toggle should simply be called "Flight Assist", that's fair, but other than that the decision was made for the sake of the gameplay.
Alphastorm Aug 11 @ 5:35pm 
Originally posted by Corian:
It's a gameplay-over-reality decision, really. Those things get made during this phase in development. If you wanna argue that the Newtonian part of the store page should be removed, and the in-game toggle should simply be called "Flight Assist", that's fair, but other than that the decision was made for the sake of the gameplay.
But the gameplay was fine, in fact better off , in my opinion with the old system! I understand it's a gameplay decision, but please, explain why the change was necessary if the gameplay was already sound.
Kris Aug 11 @ 5:40pm 
Corian is correct we decided to change the way it worked for a number of reasons, one is being that we have made sectors smaller now so there isn't a need to travel as fast since there isn't anything that should be spawning outside of roughly 2k units. The second is we are trying to get rid of the problem with the limit in the floating point (aka the size of the sectors) in an attempt to increase performance and one of the major hurdles that we will have with any type of multiplayer do to the size of the sectors. As Corian said this is a gameplay decision and in the pre-release form that we are in these type of changes can come and go. It is noted that you do not like the lack to realism.
Alphastorm Aug 11 @ 5:42pm 
Originally posted by Kris:
Corian is correct we decided to change the way it worked for a number of reasons, one is being that we have made sectors smaller now so there isn't a need to travel as fast since there isn't anything that should be spawning outside of roughly 2k units. The second is we are trying to get rid of the problem with the limit in the floating point (aka the size of the sectors) in an attempt to increase performance and one of the major hurdles that we will have with any type of multiplayer do to the size of the sectors. As Corian said this is a gameplay decision and in the pre-release form that we are in these type of changes can come and go. It is noted that you do not like the lack to realism.
Alright thanks for clearing this up for me.
HER0 01 Aug 11 @ 9:27pm 
I understand there are issues with Unity that make it difficult to have huge spaces with high speeds, but I would like to mention that I think the only speed limit to Newtonian flight should be the speed of light (in an ideal world).
PV Aug 11 @ 9:29pm 
i agree with alphastorm, liked the older system better, maybe the devs could make it as an optional choice ? For instance, you could start a galaxy with real life newtonian flight...
: )
mordin86 Aug 12 @ 12:10am 
Originally posted by PV:
i agree with alphastorm, liked the older system better, maybe the devs could make it as an optional choice ? For instance, you could start a galaxy with real life newtonian flight...
: )

+1 for that. would be nice to have it as a option in the future.
Ser Williamson Aug 12 @ 12:53am 
The issue that you often see in engines really is to do with precision. Most game engines like to track player (and object) locations on an X, Y, Z axis using an origin point (0,0,0). Once you start getting further away, it might look like 1456, 234, 2345 for example which is fine. The issue starts to arise when the player is able to travel 1000's of units a second. Suddenly you might have a location of 21325345345, 3455, 23453456. The further out you get, the bigger that number.

After a certain point those numbers start getting a little sketchy and the world ends. Everyone dies and Cthulu appears from the abyss and tells you that you need to math better.

You can have double precision and all sorts of magic, but the dev's solution makes sense - Even if we may have reservations about it's effect on gameplay. At the end of the day, giving the player less reason to get to those strange and hard location vectors is the easiest fix. The other would probably be invisible walls or god forbid, kill volumes after a certain point.

I approve of this fix, and shall likely eat a delicious pizza within the next 24 hours to celebrate.
PV Aug 12 @ 1:21am 
but you can still travel incredibly fast with the warp drive, which would be (is) even worse than the velocity of the previously true-newtonian flight so this doesnt really makes sense...
HER0 01 Aug 12 @ 4:34am 
Originally posted by Ser Williamson:
You can have double precision
As far as I know, Unity does not support double precision for world location, which is one of the main problems in this case.
Iozeph Aug 12 @ 6:31am 
Wouldn't the more limiting factor to multiplayer be the custom ships? Where we're going to be limited to the blander, standard hull designs unless everyone playing has agreed to download each other's custom ships and loadouts? Where if not then each time another ship comes into loading range our clients will have to piece it together, orientate the pieces, assign colour schemes, if we haven't got them, and then apply the name of the vessel by pinging the other player's client first rather than just having the flag tripped for 'striker,' 'picket,' or 'TradCo Courier mk II?'

And if we're to sacrifice custom ships on the altar of multiplayer -a dubious notion at best with the base single-player element so far from polished- doesn't that sort of have rid of what sets this game apart from the crowd to begin with? And never minding the meta crafting which comes with such game modes. I don't even know why it's mentioned here.

I only hope they complete the game they've set originally out to make before everyone loses interest, it quits being profitable -or even just capable of supporting their development- and they call an incomplete game done and leave it fallow for the next project as so many other early access games have done. I'm not saying they would, but even if it never sees multiplayer this game deserves to see gold status in some form.
Last edited by Iozeph; Aug 12 @ 8:39am
Alphastorm Aug 12 @ 7:51am 
Originally posted by PV:
but you can still travel incredibly fast with the warp drive, which would be (is) even worse than the velocity of the previously true-newtonian flight so this doesnt really makes sense...
Have you tried manually using the warp drive in D14? It's now impossible to use since the worlds are smaller, so you just end up shooting way past the thing you were aiming for at an extreme speed.
Alphastorm Aug 12 @ 7:57am 
Originally posted by PV:
i agree with alphastorm, liked the older system better, maybe the devs could make it as an optional choice ? For instance, you could start a galaxy with real life newtonian flight...
: )
I too agree, it seems this change was made only to make it easier to calculate ship distances in multiplayer, but as I'm more of a singleplayer kind of guy, I think the option should be there. I have also heard they have shrunk the size of each sector so you don't need to travel as fast, but I believe in singleplayer there should be an option to choose between large and small sectors. In large sectors we could use full newtonian flight, and in small sectors we could use the newer newtonian mode.
PV Aug 12 @ 11:59am 
yeah, manual warp drive is now impossible haha
Eternal Usul Aug 12 @ 3:14pm 
I've done tactical hops with the warp drive recently...

Admittedly it tends to to overshoot, but really that's expected...
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