Primordia > General Discussions > Topic Details
Padopoulos Jun 12 @ 3:24pm
Primordia 2?
Does anybody know if there's a sequel, a prequel or just a game set in this universe in developement?
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Mark Yohalem Jun 12 @ 9:03pm 
There is not. The closest I can offer you is "Fallen," a sequel / spin-off illustrated novella / animated audio book.

The written form is here: http://primordiagame.com/fallen_complete.pdf

The audio form is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vmtgUgifGQ

I've also toyed with the idea of a graphic novel / comic book set between Primordia and Fallen, but I doubt we'll get around to making it.
Padopoulos Jun 13 @ 2:18am 
Thanks!
Why do you say that? If it's beacause of the money you could do a kickstarter, I'm pretty sure you will fund it in 24h.

Primordia has lots of fans: the characters are memorable, the art is beautiful(really really beautiful), the story is interesting and well narrated, and it has lots of funny situations especially thanks to the best robot sidekick ever created.

Maybe you're working on something else. I don't know how good/bad the game did sell, but the reviews are quite good . The people liked Horatio, and Crispin, and all the other robots. With just a few improvements you could make one of the greatest robot-centered dystopian adventures ever made.

Just think about it please, fans will be very very grateful.

PD: Either way you make the game or not, graphic novel still is a great idea [and a great kickstarter pledge reward ;) ]
Arator Jun 13 @ 11:02am 
Hey Padopoulos,

you are not the first to ask for a sequel and you are not alone with that. I also really loved this game, but i asume that most people either love or hate Primordia. To be quite honest, the game lives from its dystopian robot setting. When you boil it down to the game mechanics it isn't that special and it is quite short when you compare it to similar titles. This is why the target audience might not be as great as you imagine. But people that liked the game (like me) fell in love with the charm of this world and would really like to see another game in it.

That is why i would also really like to see a kickstarter campaign because you can measure pretty well how the market would recieve a sequel and if there is a demand at all, with relatively low effort and risk on the developers side, but so far the developers have stated quite often that they don't have any plans at all for that and see the Primordia world as "finished". But i'm sure that Mark can explain that better than i can.

Also once again it is really nice to still see you around here Mark, it is great how you interact with your customers and i really appreciate that. When you are in doubt always remember that there are people out there that value your work.
Last edited by Arator; Jun 13 @ 11:04am
Padopoulos Jun 13 @ 2:36pm 
Hi Arator

It's true what you say about gameplay but, as I see it, that's the ONLY problem with the game. I mean, this game has a great ambientation, charming characters, and an interesting story. How many games are in the market that are just gameplay? Gaming indrusty lacks creativity. But Primordia already has it. I think , that good gameplay is not that hard to achieve. Maybe I should try making a game first, but technique is one thing and art is another. Everyone can learn to do a job, but not everyone is able to create something new.

They know what went wrong with the last game, they know what we liked. With some analysis the weak spots of Primordia could be solved.

Of course, maybe it's too risky. I loved the game, I really enjoyed playing it, and I would really love to see something more with it's feel. I really think a sequel could be a great game.

I just wanted to make clear that Primordia was valuable, wathever they do.
Mark Yohalem Jun 13 @ 9:32pm 
It's hard to calculate how many copies Primordia sold because many of the copies were sold in bundles, where I'm skeptical that the players necessarily played the game. I could run down the numbers, but I think the game probably sold somewhere on the order of 50,000 copies outside of bundles, probably mostly at reduced prices during sales. That is pretty decent sales for an indie adventure game. My sense is that it's considerably worse than Gemini Rue sold, about the same as Resonance, and considerably better than the rest of WEG's catalog.

Which is to say, it's not really a matter of money -- the game sold well enough, even after Steam and WEG took their cuts, to justify making a sequel. Moreover, given the wonderful fans we have -- and I don't think I'll ever get used to having people be so generous in their support -- I'm confident that we'd be just fine.

It's more that I just am not particularly interested in continuing Horatio's story, and while I'm *somewhat* more interested in the setting, even that doesn't hold huge appeal for me. Primordia was the best story I could tell in the setting; Fallen was the second-best story. The graphic novel idea -- about a robot built by Horatio v.1 ("First Horusbuilt") who sets out to complete the destruction of Metropol, forcing MetroMind to deploy an Autonomous robot to try to stop First -- is the third-best story I can come up with, and it's not enough to reasonably sustain a game. If I were going to make a "sequel" game, it would probably be about Autonomous 8 trying to find Horatio and maybe hinting in bits and pieces what happened to Horatio and the rest of the Horus crew after Primordia.

But therein is the exact reason it holds so little appeal to me: what was most fun about building Primordia, for me (aside from the particular word-play and word-crafting involved in the specific lines of dialogue), was building the world anew and, to some degree, sharing in its mysteries. Any sequel would inevitably be about answering those mysteries. Where *are* they going to go in the UNNIIC? What happened to Civitas and the Choir? What was the War of the Four Cities about? Will the moon-bound humans succeed in repopulating the world? Etc.

Not only do I think such a narrative would be inherently less interesting for the player, it would be much less interesting for me. For me, all those questions aren't really questions: they're "Ideal Forms." The War of the Four Cities, fought to the last death for unknown reasons between four polities whose names are all synonymous, was never meant to have any content to it; it's an Ideal Form of war for no good reason, to no good end. Civitas and the Choir were just a mechanism for establishing the alienness of Gimbal and highlighting that robots-as-humans wasn't the only path that robot-kind could take. Since Gimbal seems non-violent (albeit litigious) and basically nice, the Choir is a kind of best-case-scenario for the "union" that MetroMind is pushing. And as for "Wherever we want, Crispin" -- it's not that there's meant to be someplace else *particular* worth flying to in the UNNIIC: it's the fantasy of "slipping the surly bonds of earth" and finding freedom in some other, better home. Showing that Clarity died fending off a horde of robo-scavengers in a gulch while Horatio herded the other passengers to safety,, showing that they safely made it to a robo-utopia where they could live in peace and freedom and plenty, or really showing *anything* about where they went would change it from an Ideal Form into a particular thing.

It's not that I think Primordia's story is some brilliant piece of Platonic philosophy or the next Pilgrim's Progress. It's just that I never crafted it as a literal travelogue in a fully-realized science fictional setting. But any sequel would have to start from that premise. And, in my experience, such an approach almost always leads not just to a worse sequel, but to a sequel that reaches back in time and hurts the original work, the way the efforts to answer the mysteries of Star Wars endlessly degraded the movie until, rather than a beautiful rendering of the essence of fairy tales and fantasy, it wound up just being a sci-fi story about mitochondria and politics as usual and sexually repressed super-soldiers.

What I would much rather do -- and what we were trying to do (unfortunately, as I'll explain in a later post, various things have forced this project to go on hold) -- is build a *new* setting, one big and "real" enough to sustain multiple stories if need be. While Arator says that Primordia "lives from its dystopian robot setting," I'd like to imagine that we'd be just fine without robots or dystopia: that with Victor's art and our team's ideas and my words, we could build a new, different setting that would be just as powerful. And building that setting would be a lot of fun.

Alas, the particular game we were working on is on hold, so I can't offer a soon-to-be-released "spiritual sequel" any more than an actual sequel. But I am confident that a spiritual sequel *will* happen someday.
Mark Yohalem Jun 13 @ 9:32pm 
(Sorry to be so long-winded! And I'm sorry that I'm so down on a sequel; I know it's something that people want, and normally I do like to do whatever I can to give people what they want, but in this case, it's hard for me to see it.)
Padopoulos Jun 14 @ 2:46am 
I liked the whole explanation, I've never "talked" with a game developer. Now I understand your point, I guess that maybe for sci-fi fans Primordia's setting was the main attractive , but all the meaning inside has it's own value and interest independently of the scenario.

If you say you woul'd like to go on with new ideas, I'm pretty sure you'll get something good.
I would like to see what you achieve.

Thanks for answering me, and explaining everything.

Mark Yohalem Jun 14 @ 7:52am 
My pleasure! I always enjoy chatting with people about Primordia (as my rambling proves!).
Arator Jun 14 @ 10:25am 
Well you explained a very specific topic, that can't be done with a few simple words.

I think i already said that in another thread, i can understand your point of view, and as you already mentioned, sequels tend to hurt the original work by explaining some mystic features with a rather simple explanation.

Star Wars was a good example, and i would also add Matrix and Mass Effect as examples. The important part about a living world is not what you explain, but what you imply. Primordia did that well, just like Fallout 1 or 2 did in the old days. I can imagine what happens in the world around metropol, how things might look, all the small side storys, and that is impressive, considering that there were relatively few places to go and to get an impression of the world.

Nontheless, there is no point in asking for a sequel when you are not sure if you want to make one. A really good adventure needs a developer that wants to tell a story, not a developer that has to create a story because he wants to make a sequel for profit. We already have way too many of that already, and it would most likely hurt your reputation.

Guess we will have to keep an eye on your other projects then. As a side note, nice to see your games in the flash sales on gog, it's a great site and will hopefully help to shift the thoughts about DRM in the gaming industry.
Mark Yohalem Jun 14 @ 7:52pm 
I'm glad to see it on sale. I've repeatedly pleaded with the team to either drop the price to some minimal amount or release it for free, and open the intellectual property up to a public license so others can do something with it. Unfortunately, everyone thinks I'm crazy! So cheap DRM-free sales are the best we're gonna get, I fear.
Tzardok Jul 1 @ 2:08am 
Wow Mark and fellow fans, it has been a long thread to update myself before posting. I am glad for it, having a rare chance to "pick your brain" on the subject is indeed a great opportunity.

I loved Primordia, I had fun with its setting, characters and gameplay, I really did. Primordia holds a special place in my mind that I occasionally come back to even without nostalgia playthrus. I like how the game is a complete story and not a "to be continued" one. Conversations between Horatio and Crispin with great voice acting and lines were humorous and well thought out, great work from the performers to deliver the very "lively" robot due. The whole "Man" topic and how some robots treated as religion was very clever (especially since we know we are not that especial - it created an intersing contrast), how our demise is portraided is rather dark but in a cool way I can't explain. Metromind's revelations were just chilling at the end when she explains the creators fate. I do share much of your sentiment about a sequel though, I am happy the way it ended. Each ending was pretty cool, it felt complete and addressed the more important questions while the Kiosk added much flavor to the lore.

With that said, if there is ever a chance to grace us to see these characters again, I would prefer a prequel with minimal human presence if any, I think there is a lot more before than after, making a sequel would make one of the endings the "true ending", I am not really fond of this concept. I am more curious how Horus behaived before becoming Horatio, was he vicious? Was he the same but with a Thanatos agenda? To see Goliath fall, the functioning counsil before Metromind took over and of course an oppotunity to see the other cities and their settings would be a interesting ride indeed.

With that said, you metioned Star Wars and how the new kinda undermind the old, I agree with this, so if you have something else cooking, I am sure it will provide an interesting tale we all can fall in love with, while we keep our Horatio and Crispin in fond memories.

Cheers!
Last edited by Tzardok; Jul 1 @ 2:12am
Mark Yohalem Jul 1 @ 8:02am 
Thanks, Tzardok! If I ever get the itch to revisit the setting, I'll be sure to post here to let people know. :)
zeroxxx Jul 29 @ 8:47pm 
It is a bit sad to know that there wouldn't be any sequel to this good game (I'm currently actively trying to finish it). But in the end... I can understand your reasoning... hopefully you would make another game with the same genre - enjoying the story you wrote.
Mark Yohalem Jul 29 @ 10:20pm 
Thanks!
dagoonite Jul 30 @ 10:44am 
As a writer, I understand why creating a new story in an established setting can be hard at best, impossible at worst, and frequently unappealing. As a fan, though, I crave more. I always crave more, even of my own works. I think it's a good sign when you've crafted a world that fans are disappointed that they can't revisit, but are understanding and accepting. You've done a fine job, balancing a setting that's downright depressing with both the humor and hope to keep it from wearing down on you. I truly love this game, from the writing to the art and everything in between. I'm going to keep my eye on your team from here on out; this project wormed its way into my heart, and I'm not one to abandon someone who made something like that lightly.
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