Cadderley 2013 年 02 月 3 日 @ 下午 6 時 21 分
Have you ever seen Hammerpoint's proof
I been reading a lot over the last couple of month's about hackers and ban's and people calling everyone on the game a hacker because they have been killed. Guy's just because you got killed in an online pvp game doesn't mean that everyone is a hacker. You really need to get this idea out of your head's that if you die in a pvp orientated world, sometimes it just comes down to being in the wrong place at the wrong time. If thing's carry on like this, the game world will implode because sooner or later the person doing the accussing will be the accussed. It will end up being person against person, everyone at each other's throat's and that won't make for a good game experience.

Anyway what I am going to ask is if any of you guys who have been banned, Fairly or unfairly and I also don't want to know if you use hack's or not since that has no bearing on the question, Have ever been given or seen any of this "undeniable" proof that Kewk and the dev's at Hammerpoint claim that they have when, or after, they ban you?
最後修改者:Cadderley; 2013 年 02 月 3 日 @ 下午 6 時 23 分
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theolaf 2013 年 02 月 3 日 @ 下午 7 時 32 分 
They provide zero proof of bans. ever. they also have a clause saying they dont have to in their ToS agreement.

Also, not to start this argument, but at least half the players hack, Ive watched friends(who have esp) play, and it is crazy how people know exactly where he would be. Lying prone inside the post office behind the desk? people sater at him through the back wall.
Coming over the top of a hill 300m away? odd that the guy fighting zombies in the town instantly run from the zombies and find a hiding spot.
watching people play ring around the rosie with buildings, pillars, trees, everything.

Im sure MANY of the banned people were indeed hacking, but I also have no doubt in my mind many were not. They never provide proof, and will tell you that straight up if you ask.
Cadderley 2013 年 02 月 3 日 @ 下午 8 時 02 分 
theolaf 發表:
They provide zero proof of bans. ever. they also have a clause saying they dont have to in their ToS agreement.

Also, not to start this argument, but at least half the players hack, Ive watched friends(who have esp) play, and it is crazy how people know exactly where he would be. Lying prone inside the post office behind the desk? people sater at him through the back wall.
Coming over the top of a hill 300m away? odd that the guy fighting zombies in the town instantly run from the zombies and find a hiding spot.
watching people play ring around the rosie with buildings, pillars, trees, everything.

Im sure MANY of the banned people were indeed hacking, but I also have no doubt in my mind many were not. They never provide proof, and will tell you that straight up if you ask.

That's not the main point Olaf, What I am trying to acertain is what you have already more or less said. That a person is hung before they have even been tried.

Can you imagine what the world would be like if the judicial system operated in the same manner?
最後修改者:Cadderley; 2013 年 02 月 3 日 @ 下午 8 時 11 分
[GA]NuclearShadow 2013 年 02 月 3 日 @ 下午 10 時 49 分 
Isn't this discussion pointless at this point though? They even admitted to banning some innocent players and also claimed to unban them afterwards. So clearly this "undeniable proof" claim has already been debunked by their own actions.

As for your anti-cheat ban cases should be similar to a fair court case that could never happen. All anti-cheats are set up to catch and instantly flag a player. Some have different means of banning like VAC which is not instant in hopes of the cheater not alerting his cheating buddies. With how common cheating is today on online games it's not reasonable for you to exepect a personal look into each and every case. Again lets look at VAC.

According to http://www.vacbanned.com there are 1,601,551 VAC banned accounts on Steam.
This is gathered by users who have a public profile and at-least displayed being banned while being public so there is actually more than this. Do you think Valve would have the time to review each and every one of these cases? Your comparison to a judicial system is just unreasonable. The courts are backed by billions of dollars and god knows how many people from the humble clerks to the judges that work within them. Even then some court cases can take years and now we see many taken a long time just to begin. Often leaving a innocent person in incarcerated because they either cannot afford bail or was denied it. The judicial system is failing with much more resources than what a video game development team will ever have.

Despite this Valve has unbanned 2,361 accounts so they do at-least try. Are there banned accounts that are innocent in the 1,601,551 figure? I would bet on it.

Moving on if Hammerpoint claims to review every case personally than they are lying. To have any ounce in belief in this would make one gullible, and to expect it would make one unreasonable.
最後修改者:[GA]NuclearShadow; 2013 年 02 月 3 日 @ 下午 10 時 51 分
Akashi Seijuro 2013 年 02 月 4 日 @ 上午 12 時 24 分 
GANuclearShadow 發表:
Isn't this discussion pointless at this point

According to http://www.vacbanned.com there are 1,601,551 VAC banned accounts on Steam.
This is gathered by users who have a public profile and at-least displayed being banned while being public so there is actually more than this. Do you think Valve would have the time to review each and every one of these cases? .

My prespective, they do have time to review em, Valve is a big company and one of the Best, Unlike Hammerpoint, they dont even have enough man power to do so, Can't really compare Valve and Hammerpoint, just way off.

With a big company as Valve, i'am sure they have tons of People who are responsible for reviewing players reports.
最後修改者:Akashi Seijuro; 2013 年 02 月 4 日 @ 上午 12 時 26 分
[GA]NuclearShadow 2013 年 02 月 4 日 @ 上午 1 時 55 分 
Vector |UC|™ 發表:
GANuclearShadow 發表:
Isn't this discussion pointless at this point

According to http://www.vacbanned.com there are 1,601,551 VAC banned accounts on Steam.
This is gathered by users who have a public profile and at-least displayed being banned while being public so there is actually more than this. Do you think Valve would have the time to review each and every one of these cases? .

My prespective, they do have time to review em, Valve is a big company and one of the Best, Unlike Hammerpoint, they dont even have enough man power to do so, Can't really compare Valve and Hammerpoint, just way off.

With a big company as Valve, i'am sure they have tons of People who are responsible for reviewing players reports.

People have jobs to do. If Valve was capable they would do it, I'm sure. It's also not like you can just pick anyone out of Valve to do the job either. Can you imagine how many man hours it would take to review that 1,601,551 VAC bans and they are still new ones coming in every wave when you have a handful of people at best that can do it? Even if each case took a mere 5 minutes that would be 133,462.58 hours. That would be 5,561 days or 15.22 years of man hours needed. You have to be unreasonable to the point of insanity if you think Valve can waste the precious time of it's staff that can even do the job. And thats assuming it's only 5 minutes per case.

We havn't even scratched how much money this would cost them. As we don't know how much Valve pays I heard it was decent but not the top plus this will vary on each employee lets just say for some reason they happen to all be newbies to the industry and recieved average pay. $50K yearly so about $24/h
with 40 hour weeks. That means it would cost Valve $38,437,224. Again that is now assuming average pay for totally new employees to the industry and only 5 minutes per case.

Do you still think that would be possible and reasonable for Valve not only to waste almost 40 million dollars and the time for their staff to be doing something way more productive? In-fact that 38.5 million would be capable of entirely funding a AAA title. You are lead by ignorance to think this and choose to remain ignorant if you continue to do so after seeing what it would take.

As for Hammerpoint they would actually be more likely to be able to tackle this problem than Valve as they don't have such a massive number to deal with. If we do the same math and assumed they only have 10,000 cases then it would take about 833 hours or almost 35 days. If they pay the same starting wage we are looking at about $20,000 which sounds like a little but to a small developer with limited resources 833 work hours and $20,000 is a-lot to spare for such a task.

I believe Kewk when he said he spent those few 10 hour days looking purely at bans. what I don't believe is that he reviewed them all in such a short time. He no doubt saw that with the arrival of new bans and the huge load he tried to take on alone infront of him that he would be stuck doing it and nothing else which could be invested into the game. Unfortunately Kewk and seemingly everyone at Hammerpoint are dishonest and deceitful in nature and he didn't tell the truth that he simply gave up on the foolish task. You may not like the reality of the situation but you're stuck accepting it regardless as reality does not bend to your will.
最後修改者:[GA]NuclearShadow; 2013 年 02 月 4 日 @ 上午 1 時 58 分
iSay 2013 年 02 月 4 日 @ 上午 5 時 50 分 
Valve don't need to review all their banned cases, VAC is designed to catch software that alters the game and it makes damn sure it's not wrong. Which is why when it has got it wrong, it's in masses and not individual cases. It logs these changes so any time a person contacts them claming to be innocent it can be easily reviewed and verfied by support; see BurtonJ's posts.

Hammerpoint, on the other hand, rely on chance that people are cheating from statistics, with zero evidence that the game has been altered in any way. Then relies on their support to decide whether or not that person is -probably- cheating.
[GA]NuclearShadow 2013 年 02 月 4 日 @ 上午 8 時 18 分 
iSay 發表:
Valve don't need to review all their banned cases, VAC is designed to catch software that alters the game and it makes damn sure it's not wrong. Which is why when it has got it wrong, it's in masses and not individual cases. It logs these changes so any time a person contacts them claming to be innocent it can be easily reviewed and verfied by support; see BurtonJ's posts.

Hammerpoint, on the other hand, rely on chance that people are cheating from statistics, with zero evidence that the game has been altered in any way. Then relies on their support to decide whether or not that person is -probably- cheating.

Don't get me wrong I think VAC is the best anti-cheat there is. I'm simply speaking the reality that each case cannot be determined by a employee regardless of the quality of the anti-cheat.
Whether it be Valve, Hammerpoint, or any other developer.
Cadderley 2013 年 02 月 4 日 @ 上午 8 時 38 分 
GANuclearShadow 發表:
iSay 發表:
Valve don't need to review all their banned cases, VAC is designed to catch software that alters the game and it makes damn sure it's not wrong. Which is why when it has got it wrong, it's in masses and not individual cases. It logs these changes so any time a person contacts them claming to be innocent it can be easily reviewed and verfied by support; see BurtonJ's posts.

Hammerpoint, on the other hand, rely on chance that people are cheating from statistics, with zero evidence that the game has been altered in any way. Then relies on their support to decide whether or not that person is -probably- cheating.

Don't get me wrong I think VAC is the best anti-cheat there is. I'm simply speaking the reality that each case cannot be determined by a employee regardless of the quality of the anti-cheat.
Whether it be Valve, Hammerpoint, or any other developer.

I'm glad court cases aren't handled in the same way to be honest, yet they can find the time to deal with those in most civil countries adequately and on a much larger scale.
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