moo Feb 5, 2014 @ 2:05pm
Someone Explain the M1 Abrams range malus I get in battle sometimes?
So I was just playing in a 4x4. I brought in four M1 Abrams to engage three t-72s. This was an armored deck, my units were all elite, and they normally have a gun rane of 2100 meters. For some reason the white line that pops up in between you and your target and shows your range needed to get off a shot showed that I needed to get within about 1700 meters to fire a shot I think, and there was a little tag on the range bar and it said "inefficiency" I think.

My tanks had not been even fired on yet. They were calm and had full health bars, and as I said they were elite exp units as I had an armor experience deck. This was not an issue of armor piercing power or accuracy, just the range was reduced and the t-72s were clearly visible on the map in open territory.
Moreover I'm pretty sure I've encountered this phenomena with tanks other than M1s before. I replayed the game just to make sure I had not been shot at before this reduction in range occurred.

Anyone have any idea what the issue was with so I can avoid it?
Thanks.
Showing 1-15 of 18 comments
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FuturePro Feb 5, 2014 @ 2:09pm 
hmm so far i know it can be that ther was a object or a small hill thats block youre line of side ?
moo Feb 5, 2014 @ 2:13pm 
Nope there was nothing in between the t-72s and my M1s. As I said I just had to get closer to fire. they opened up on me when I got a little under 2000 meters so I assume they were t-72s with a 1925 range, but I had to get well below that, I'm estimating 1700 meters or so. There was a little label on the range bar that acutally said inefficiency - as if it was telling me my range was reduced due to some reason I'm not aware of.
Thanks.
Last edited by moo; Feb 5, 2014 @ 2:14pm
TheNamelessOne Feb 5, 2014 @ 2:30pm 
Maybe your M1's got scurred.
moo Feb 5, 2014 @ 2:51pm 
Alright, well I went over this a couple times. They were calm. A shot had not been fired at them at that point. They had elite experience. And anyway I didn't think getting scared reduced range, it makes it substantially more inaccurate I thought.

Here is a screenshot. They were t72bs I was facing so I was wrong about that part - the enemy had a irnage of 2275m. Anyway the T-72s I couldn't attack were firing at some Bradleys to the left of the pond in this screenshot. you can see from the HUD that the M1s were calm and had taken no damage, they had not been fired on at this point. And perhaps the most important point, there was a little tag on the range bar I could see that said efficiency. I didn't think to take a screenshot from that game that would have showed that.
http://i.imgur.com/BqqhtlX.jpg
TheNamelessOne Feb 5, 2014 @ 4:26pm 
i was joking about the last comment but therre are several possibilities.
1. Your graphics are awesome
2. Often at long ranges weapons lose some accuracy, and at that kind of range with some bush cover they may not have been able to fire accurately.
3.It may truly just be a bug( I dont use the M1 Abrams to often because they are worth too many pts forth their value) in which case you should contact eugen systems.
moo Feb 5, 2014 @ 4:35pm 
Thanks madeinamerica, but as I said its not that they couldn't fire accurately. their range was reduced. As you can see in the screenshot, they are not even trying to open fire well within 2100 meters.
It looks like it was intentional and not a bug because as I said a few times, there was a little tag on the range bar that said "inefficient" or "inefficiency". If it was a coding error, I don't think it would've alerted me to it at all.
I appreciate your thoughts because if nothing else you've bumped this thread and let me bump it several times now.
TheNamelessOne Feb 5, 2014 @ 4:48pm 
yep... I hope you get your problem solved.
AlphaZulu90 Feb 5, 2014 @ 4:55pm 
It fires [KE] shells, so I think it means it will lose so much velocity by the time it hits, it wont do anything to its armor.

:)
Rococo Era Feb 5, 2014 @ 4:56pm 
Range reduced and it says inefficient, correct? What this means is your gun which has a normal range of 2100, is unable to penetrate what you are targeting at its maximum range. I'm assuming you were using the L7 variant of the M1 and probably attacking some of the stronger T-72s. You see this happen a lot when you are attacking much stronger armor.

Edit: After looking at your screenshot, you were attacking the T-72B which is the best T-72 you can go up against, while you were using the cheapest M1. Your best bet when facing those is to either stun them somehow with arty/air attacks, use the M1A1, or Hide in ambush for them.
Last edited by Rococo Era; Feb 5, 2014 @ 4:59pm
DelroyMonjo Feb 5, 2014 @ 5:05pm 
From the screenshot, it looks to me like you got off 2 shots with the Abrams. Shooting across lakes and some of the trees and shrublines shown in that pic. can be tricky at times. As for the 'inefficient' message, maybe it meant the stabilizer was not efficient at that range if the Abrams were moving while shooting, not sure.
edit: ah, those were the M1's w/o the stab. as Rococo points out.
Last edited by DelroyMonjo; Feb 5, 2014 @ 5:07pm
moo Feb 5, 2014 @ 5:23pm 
wait, so the tank gun won't even fire if it can't penetrate at its greatest range?
that makes little sense from a game and real life standpoint lots of units in the this game shoot at stuff they cant hurt. and there is such a thing a s a lucky shot.

but the nuts of what you are saying there must be some AP versus range formula I am violating in taking on amuch better tank that puts an autolock on my tank guns at great range. So are you also saying that at an oblique angle those abrams would be given the ability to fire at 2100 meters because they could pentrate teh side armor? thanks.
Last edited by moo; Feb 5, 2014 @ 5:24pm
Rococo Era Feb 5, 2014 @ 5:27pm 
Frontally, the M1 has no chance of penetrating the T-72B at 2100m so it wont fire. You can force fire at them using the attack position button, but all this will do is morale damage ( Which is devestating, btw. A paniced unit is basically useless outside of infantry ). If you catch them off guard from the side or rear, they can penetrate and will fire. This is an unlikely scenario though, because at the first sign of danger units will automatically bring their best armor to bear.
moo Feb 5, 2014 @ 5:34pm 
yeah - the moral state is why I don't understand why they put this feature in...given the option to shoot and just plink the enemy or do nothing at all and be slaughtered you'd always want to shoot if you couldn't hide.
maybe the designers thought they had to put this in because the in lieu of messing with the moral system as ancient tanks were getting the best of good units too often.
Last edited by moo; Feb 5, 2014 @ 5:35pm
Uncle Urkel Feb 5, 2014 @ 9:26pm 
The T-72B has an armor value of 15, the standard M1 Abrams has an AP power of 13 at maximum range. Even if your tanks could fire at the T-72B's, it would not be able to punch through their armor and deal damage. AP power increases with shorter distances (increase in roughly 1 AP power per 150m less of max range with KE weapons). Hence why the game says "INEFFICIENT" until you can get into effective range.

Also PACT armor is not a joke in this game. Throw away any ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ gulf war stories of abrams smashing hundreds of Soviet export tanks. The Soviet tanks you face in game are heavily modified and are actually modern. NATO even predicted that with the dawn of the T-80U the Soviet Union could capture Europe in two weeks, so yea.

To face off against a T-72B at maximum cannon range you would need an M1IP or ideally M1A1. The M8 AGS also possesses enough power to punch through, but it's made of paper. It's worth noting that American tanks are not all that great when it comes to cost effectiveness. The M1IP is a great damage sponge, but USA's real armored strength lies in the M1A1 and M8 AGS.

Also FYI the KE round damage/penetration formula is ((AP/2)+1)-(Armor/2).

HEAT rounds deal 1 damage even if they can't pierce. The AP value they have is the same at all ranges. AFAIK you cannot have the "INEFFICIENT" problem with them. A group of 5 Kanonenjagdpanzer (15 points) can kill a T-80U in two volleys, to put that into perspective.
Last edited by Uncle Urkel; Feb 5, 2014 @ 9:39pm
Sticky Hooves Feb 5, 2014 @ 11:20pm 
Yeah, T-72Bs are pretty awesome tanks, while stock Abrams are... well... not.

The whole Abrams lineup seems to me like decent MBTs, but nothing special. If you want to do some serious damage, use either M1A1, or M8 AGS (which are freaking amazing, best light tank in game in my opinion).
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Date Posted: Feb 5, 2014 @ 2:05pm
Posts: 18