Wine on steamOS

[<GRA> Pendersen]

I think adding wine support in steamOS allowing us to play our old favorite games on the new platform would be awesome.

I do not disagree with the support mentality stated in this post. Programmers should work to make their programs as flawless as possible, in all platforms.
http://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/10/558748822603539958/

But not all software companies are still around to fix their bugs.

I also submit that steams original purpose is much the same as wine, and a collaboration would only strengthen steams presence as a universal game platform, as you give the player greater control over their choices.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_(software)#Initial_release

Streaming a computer through a computer is great, nVidia local streams are quite assuredly awesome, making steamOS a game server is another great idea, (nVidia streaming + steamOS server) + steamOS client on a minimized notebook, or desktop sounds like a real win for a gamer hub.
http://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/146422/can-steam-os-steambox-run-windows-games

I however think steamOS should have the ability to run windows games without the need of a windows computer streaming it content. It seems wasteful to me though, "Robbing Peter to pay Paul" kind of deal.

IDK maybe there is legal ramifications that limit Steam from implementing a wine or wine like application?

I hope the option is an option, because I foresee valve totally taking over the console and pc gaming market. Having the ability to play my old favorite games with my new friends on a new more powerful platform sounds great to me!

[Spawn of Totoro]

Valve seems to want to get away from MS. By using their files as a wrapper for games on Steam, it kind of defeats the purpose as well. The streaming makes it a users choice.

Aside form that, one can already run the Steam Client in Wine as well as the games. Using Wine for both would be a bit redundant.

Also, who would be responsible for creating and maintaining the wine wrappers? Developers wouldn't trust the community to do it as they would see it as an open door to piracy. Valve doesn't make the games and so has no reason to do it. The developers probably wouldn't be willing to do it due to the added costs of making a game.

The use of Wine is best left up to the user, imho. It would cause a lot of issues if done by a others.

[R3450N]

WINE is an option, not an alternative. I wouldn't like WINE being endorsed on any Linux OS; those who want WINE can get it, but most of us want native Linux ports.

[CosmicRevolt]

The problem is that it isn't a option right now, at least not a good one. We cannot download the windows native games if we are on Linux/SteamOS. Many game devs will not develop for Linux because, to them, there aren't enough people who use it. It would be nice if the steam for Linux app would allow us to download and then open the game using Playwithlinux and or wine. Rather then having to install the steam for windows app as well. that way we can more easily play windows games, all while being able to play Linux native games from the same app, rather then having to go back and forth multible between the two to be able to play both games that do support linux and games that don't.

[instabilis]

scootermcgee původně napsal:

The problem is that it isn't a option right now, at least not a good one. We cannot download the windows native games if we are on Linux/SteamOS. Many game devs will not develop for Linux because, to them, there aren't enough people who use it. It would be nice if the steam for Linux app would allow us to download and then open the game using Playwithlinux and or wine. Rather then having to install the steam for windows app as well. that way we can more easily play windows games, all while being able to play Linux native games from the same app, rather then having to go back and forth multible between the two to be able to play both games that do support linux and games that don't.

How would that help anyone? Devs will not make native ports if they think wrappers like Wine are acceptable. Wine has been around since the early 90s, has it helped get native ports? No, it hasn't. If you own a game that doesn't run on Linux/SteamOS natively, tuff. Go ask the dev for a Linux port.

[Dusk of Oolacile]

scootermcgee původně napsal:

It would be nice if the steam for Linux app would allow us to download and then open the game using Playwithlinux and or wine. Rather then having to install the steam for windows app as well.

Steam games have a steam stub built into the exe file. This is that gets run first when you start the game. It communicates with the client, starts it if it's not running, then does all the DRM stuff.

The linux client should be able to run this piece of windows code built into the windows executable to be able to run the game. While wine could do it, the linux binary of steam should still be able to patch into the windows (wine) process and communicate with it. Not an easy task I suppose and any wine update could break it. It would also be an open door to piracy indeed.

[SHONUFF!!!]

LOLCAT původně napsal:

scootermcgee původně napsal:

It would be nice if the steam for Linux app would allow us to download and then open the game using Playwithlinux and or wine. Rather then having to install the steam for windows app as well.

Steam games have a steam stub built into the exe file. This is that gets run first when you start the game. It communicates with the client, starts it if it's not running, then does all the DRM stuff.

The linux client should be able to run this piece of windows code built into the windows executable to be able to run the game. While wine could do it, the linux binary of steam should still be able to patch into the windows (wine) process and communicate with it. Not an easy task I suppose and any wine update could break it. It would also be an open door to piracy indeed.

I don't believe for one bit that piracy concerns are the reason they don't help WINE. Every game out there is aready pirated and can be found on numerous sites. Supporting WINE is not going to open the flood gates to something that already exists. Also, I would risk the posibility for an update break because I am sure WINE developers can mitigate/fix those type issues. As example, during the early days of playing WoW thru WINE... new WINE updates religiously broke WoW --fixes came swiftly... and are primarily a thing of the past for most games now. Furthermore there are plenty of games that have DRM intact even though being played throught the use of WINE --one of which is previously mentioned.

[Dusk of Oolacile]

DRM IS intact as long as you're using the windows version of Steam. The problem is still solving the problem of communicating with the linux client from inside of wine. Also companies think differently. It has to bring enough profit while not hurting the reputation of the company. The user base is abysmal, and wine performance is so terrible on the average computer that most games are completely unplayable. I'm sure Valve doesn't want bad reputation.

[SHONUFF!!!]

LOLCAT původně napsal:

DRM IS intact as long as you're using the windows version of Steam. The problem is still solving the problem of communicating with the linux client from inside of wine. Also companies think differently. It has to bring enough profit while not hurting the reputation of the company. The user base is abysmal, and wine performance is so terrible on the average computer that most games are completely unplayable. I'm sure Valve doesn't want bad reputation.

The profit comes from being able to play the game that otherwise would not be playable; thereby providing a reason for the minority of linux users to buy the game... if anything it would mean more profit. Everyone that uses Wine reluctantly accepts that on a few games (especially one that is a recent released) there may be some little issue but usually gets fixed at some point in a version update release. Also what games are you talking about and are the systems you are referring to spec'd to play the game at optimal level to begin with? I admit there are some games out there that have issue but which are you referring to? I am not convinced it is as bad as you are claiming but maybe I am just having an anomaly of success. There are some games I know not to try but it is not like it was 7 years ago... for the most part there are a few big titles I know not to even think about trying to install using Wine.

Also, how in the world would Valve get a bad reputation from players individual choice to use Wine? Valve does not promote Wine but they never said not to use it and in winehq there seems to be plenty of success using wine to play games downloaded from Steam with no abysmal loss of performance you mention.

Don't take this response as confrontational argument but as an attempt to understand your claims --as fellow linux brother in arms. When was the last time you used Wine and what are your hardware specs? Also, what games have you recently had issue with in Wine... and did you research the compatibility of the game for Wine before attempting to install and play?

[Dusk of Oolacile]

Profit: Yes, games could get playable for a bit more people which would mean a bit more sales. If you subtract the wage of the developers implementing and maintaining it, and all the additional cost (fix cost, opportunity cost etc.) you are probably deep into the minus zone. Otherwise we'd have this for ages. This is how business economics work.

Games: I admit, I have old hardware. A Phenom II X with a 6850, 4GB RAM etc. However, if I look around in the real world, more people still run P4 computers than something like mine, or even faster. It's only a privilege of very-very rich people. One of the games I recently tried was Skyrim which I can easily run under windows. In wine I had a single digit frame rate and the CPU cooler went 7000rpm. Unless you have an i5 or higher, forget playing modern games in wine. Games from the 2003-2005 era are okay-ish... However, I've recently tried the built-in benchmark in the original F.E.A.R. and the result was "49% under 25 fps" which doesn't sound well, does it?

Settings: I expect to run these older games at 1080p, medium-high settings. Under windows even higher settings can be achieved while maintaining 60-80 fps or even more. I would settle having 40-60 fps using wine, as long as it's stable, there's no micro-stuttering etc.

When it comes to compatibility and Winehq, most games are fine, when it comes to features. Even games like Skyrim look perfect and render without glitches, and they run stable. It is the low frame rate, lack of multithreading and the cost of converting D3D to Opengl what kills the whole thing performance wise.

Wine CSMT might help, but looks like wine developers seek to re-invent Valve Time. Gallium-nine would also help, but it probably never will be officially merged, so Valve can't use it, because most users are not tech-savy at all..

[SHONUFF!!!]

LOLCAT původně napsal:

Profit: Yes, games could get playable for a bit more people which would mean a bit more sales. If you subtract the wage of the developers implementing and maintaining it, and all the additional cost (fix cost, opportunity cost etc.) you are probably deep into the minus zone. Otherwise we'd have this for ages. This is how business economics work.

Games: I admit, I have old hardware. A Phenom II X with a 6850, 4GB RAM etc. However, if I look around in the real world, more people still run P4 computers than something like mine, or even faster. It's only a privilege of very-very rich people. One of the games I recently tried was Skyrim which I can easily run under windows. In wine I had a single digit frame rate and the CPU cooler went 7000rpm. Unless you have an i5 or higher, forget playing modern games in wine. Games from the 2003-2005 era are okay-ish... However, I've recently tried the built-in benchmark in the original F.E.A.R. and the result was "49% under 25 fps" which doesn't sound well, does it?

Settings: I expect to run these older games at 1080p, medium-high settings. Under windows even higher settings can be achieved while maintaining 60-80 fps or even more. I would settle having 40-60 fps using wine, as long as it's stable, there's no micro-stuttering etc.

When it comes to compatibility and Winehq, most games are fine, when it comes to features. Even games like Skyrim look perfect and render without glitches, and they run stable. It is the low frame rate, lack of multithreading and the cost of converting D3D to Opengl what kills the whole thing performance wise.

Wine CSMT might help, but looks like wine developers seek to re-invent Valve Time. Gallium-nine would also help, but it probably never will be officially merged, so Valve can't use it, because most users are not tech-savy at all..

Developers would not be losing significant time or money providing a snippet of code that is missing and for it to be implimented by winehq developers. They could at minimium just send an email to the developers saying, "Hey, this is an issue and here is a solution that will help you provide a fix in the next Wine release" or "...however, you're on your own with a actual solution --but we're pointing you in the right direction." So, I am not buying that it's a business decision not to provide minimal snippet or adivice to help a fix.

If you are applying all of what we have discussed throughout our discussion for this post and summing it up as it is moreso an issue for ancient hardware than I agree with everything you just wrote and acknowledge where you are coming from with your statements. Maybe alot of my success running wine has come from the fact my laptop is an i7, and though I have a Intel Pro 5200 (yeah I know you despise onboard Intel graphics --lol) it may be the reason I have had better luck performance wise with wine.

Good discussion. If you play Dota2 or some other cool online game put me on the Friendlist... you may actually be fun to play with. BTW, thanks for the tip for Gallime-nine. I am definitely going to try it out!

[SHONUFF!!!]

Ghost původně napsal:

Don't support WINE, support GNU/Linux. If you support WINE you are supporting MS not Linux.

With that logic why stop there. Remove every extension/module in the GNU Linux kernel that does not apply specifically to linux. Remove support for BSD, NTFS, FAT file formats, access to Apple formatted partitions, etc. --remove it all. Then you'll have the open source only people chiming in and they'll say that's not good enough --we must remove all proprietary functionality (NVIDIA, Adobe flash, general drivers, etc.) I guarantee you'd be pissed if all that happened.

I think the linux versus windows non-sense is counter productive when every linux user relies on things that aren't always specifically tailored to linux. Interoperatability is what we all want... if that was not the case then get rid of your ipads, iphones, windows phones, etc. and ensure every device you have runs a form of the GNU Linux kernel. It is very likely you are using some form of software medium in linux to access those devices --if you have them.